A much-needed discussion about Strange misc and their related prices. (Yes, Pyroman, this is about you.)

[The G What ™]

In case you didn't notice, Pyroman took it upon himself to "rep-whore" all of the uncraftable strange miscellaneous items he could. This event, in my opinion, sets a dangerous precedent for all of us involved in backpack.tf and the trading community as a whole. Here are the important factors to consider, listed in an objective manner.

 

• A Strangifier can be applied to any pre-existing item quality. It will then add a strange counter to that item.
• It is very likely that more strangifiers and chemistry sets will be released in future updates.
• Pyroman's suggestions were all evaluated by both the voting community and the backpack.tf moderators, and accepted based on the extant rules for suggestions.
• These accepted suggestions are now searchable and visible on  backpack.tf

Initially, the most logical reaction would be one of bewilderment. A site user simply took a large amount of his personal time in order to accrue a large amount of imaginary points that serve very little purpose. That's nothing new to speak of. (Trust me, Pyroman will actually do ANYTHING for rep. And I do mean ANYTHING.)

 

The reason this is disconcerting; suddenly items that can potentially have strangifiers applied to them become a much more complex matter to evaluate and price. Naturally after the Unique Strange and Uncraftable Strange versions of the Archimedes have been priced, it stands to reason that the Genuine Strange Archimedes needs a price. On an unrelated note, I know for a fact that at least one exists.

 

Matters become even more complex when considering that The Villain's Veil and the Bonk Boy are also attainable in Unusual qualities, which vary wildly in reported price and accuracy, with many of them being outdated. Pricing every possible variant means hundreds of contributions will need to be examined and evaluated in order to maintain the integrity of backpack.tf. This website has become an invaluable tool for the trading community, and with enough controversy and scrutiny already aimed at everyone involved in the site, the current time would be a terrible one in which to be remiss with pricing. 

 

Adding a bit of speculation; it must be considered what would happen if there were to be, say, a Tyrant's Helm chemistry set released. The Tyrant's Helm is already available in Unique, Uncraftable, Vintage, Genuine, and Unusual qualities. With enough of a workload for the (volunteer) moderators to deal with, and enough terrible "proofless" suggestions already, such an event would cause an enormous quagmire. 

 

However, this issue has a direct impact on anyone that submits suggestions as well. More prices must now be monitored, recorded, and updated, Pyroman might have had the time recently in order to research and add a suggestion for each one, but will that situation persist? With so much of the trading community using backpack as a valuable hub of information, it will likely cause an enormous struggle to keep every price updated. 

 

Thus, considering all of this, leaves us as a community to attempt to decide. I say "as a community" as I personally feel that since this impacts suggesters, moderators, and anyone relying on backpack.tf for accuracy, we should try to conjure an adequate solution to this issue together. 

 

Ideas so far: 

• Add a bonus to these items if they have Strange along with another quality, similar to applied paints and strange parts, based on the Unique Strange variant price.
  • Less work for everyone involved, but less accurate in price. 

OR

• Allow suggestions and recorded prices for all possible variants.
  • Mountains more work, but this will allow accurate reported prices, which can be updated and recorded to reflect market trends. 

 

What do you think? This thread requires your feedback. I would also like everyone that responds to attempt to come to a general consensus before I start bothering the moderators (And potentially Brad himself) to address the issue. 

 

 

[AwesomeMcCoolName]

• Allow suggestions and recorded prices for all possible variants.
  • Mountains more work, but this will allow accurate reported prices, which can be updated and recorded to reflect market trends. 

Is this not what we have now?

 

P.S. Theres no genuine tyrants (stovepipe would be a better example)

[Teeird]

My vote goes to bp.tf not even touching strangifiers/strange miscs. Too much hassle to go through with potential custom coding and other bits of enduring hardship. Not to mention the amount of confusion it would bring to the table with "genuine stranges" "uncraftable stranges" "vintage strange" and "unusual strange". Give it a few months and maybe we should reconsider adding prices if something comes up.

[The G What ™]

Is this not what we have now?

 

P.S. Theres no genuine tyrants (stovepipe would be a better example)

Well, from what I understand, Pyroman said he was told "It wouldn't break anything." 

Also: http://backpack.tf/stats/99/1/0 

[AwesomeMcCoolName]

Also: http://backpack.tf/stats/99/1/0 

Wait, what....when did they add a g. tyrants

 

edit: http://wiki.teamfortress.com/wiki/Promotional_items

hmmm

[Hugh Jazz]

How does he even suggest for them? http://backpack.tf/vote/733/1100/0

[♠Derpeh♤]

My vote goes to not touching them at all.

 

Strange genuine miscs and uncraftable...etc introduces too many variables as well as confusion.

 

If anything pricing these does more to confuse the community than to enlighten them.

[polar]

• Add a bonus to these items if they have Strange along with another quality, similar to applied paints and strange parts, based on the Unique Strange variant price.

 

This has already been talked about and will likely be the route taken. Will apply to genuines, vintages, and unusuals based on a bonus calculated from the regular craftable versions.

[MC22]

Is this not what we have now?P.S. Theres no genuine tyrants (stovepipe would be a better example)

cough where've you been?

[F CHARLIE]

My vote goes to bp.tf not even touching strangifiers/strange miscs. Too much hassle to go through with potential custom coding and other bits of enduring hardship. Not to mention the amount of confusion it would bring to the table with "genuine stranges" "uncraftable stranges" "vintage strange" and "unusual strange". Give it a few months and maybe we should reconsider adding prices if something comes up.

 

 

 

That would be a huge failure.

 

 

 

 

This has already been talked about and will likely be the route taken. Will apply to genuines, vintages, and unusuals based on a bonus calculated from the regular craftable versions.

 

 

 

The pricing of the strangifier and it being applied to the item is what should have been initially. I believe the problem is that each one can not be identified by the system yet(except pomson, which should have been priced). I have been curious if it was intended by valve or just a mistake.

[mattje]

yes

[Avenging Flame]

I don't see the problem with pricing them all individually. I mean, Pyroman will be more than happy to do it if it means more rep for him

[F CHARLIE]

I don't see the problem with pricing them all individually. I mean, Pyroman will be more than happy to do it if it means more rep for him

 

Its the same as pricing every item seperately for each paint type used on it. You don't know how many itens valve will allow to be strangified.

[The G What ™]

This has already been talked about and will likely be the route taken. Will apply to genuines, vintages, and unusuals based on a bonus calculated from the regular craftable versions.

For the record, this is the idea that I support. His recent accepted suggestions are more or less the uncraft price+the strange price, with some small variation. 

 

I don't see the problem with pricing them all individually. I mean, Pyroman will be more than happy to do it if it means more rep for him

Well then he's got a lot of work to do. There are 46 unusual bonk boys that all need a strange udpate now.

[Avenging Flame]

Its the same as pricing every item seperately for each paint type used on it. You don't know how many itens valve will allow to be strangified.

The problem with not pricing them individually though is that the market could vary widely. a Strange All Father sells for a lot more comparatively than a Strange Merc's pride scarf and a Strange Planets Bonk Boy could sell for a lot less comparatively than a Strange Stormy Bonk Boy. We just don't know enough at this time to lump a static price bonus on to strange hats and miscs.

[The G What ™]

Its the same as pricing every item seperately for each paint type used on it. You don't know how many itens valve will allow to be strangified.

Looking at the item schema, apparently almost every single hat and misc is set up to be strangified. Whether or not this becomes the case remains to be seen. It is very likely though that in the next update we will see strange hats proper.

[AwesomeMcCoolName]

For the record, this is the idea that I support. His recent accepted suggestions are more or less the uncraft price+the strange price, with some small variation. 

 

Well then he's got a lot of work to do. There are 46 unusual bonk boys that all need a strange udpate now.

i don't think it would need to be applied to unusuals, as unusuals aren't affected by levels/paints/anything.

 

But idk, i can see merit in valuing it either way....but a strange bonk boy is still different than a unique painted bonk boy. Just a side point, by only applying strange prices as bonuses, the trade calculator will become useless once strange cosmetics become prevalent.

 

From the perspective of someone who would use backpack.tf to get a quick price before a trade (i.e. he wants to know how much the other person is offering) it would be a lot easier/better to distinguish between unique and strange variants. Maybe if the bonus was applied differently, i.e. the bonus would be calculated by backpack.tf and then there would be a slot on the pricelist indicating that the bonus is: "+x" rather than being forced to see the item in a backpack; or new columns would be added for strange unique/strange uc/strange genuine/strange vintage and the bonus would be automatically added. 

[F CHARLIE]

1. We can't price each strange as the work load would be insane.

 

2. Apparently the sets and the strangifier can't be identified seperatly for each type. Don't know why. Can anyone (brad) explain why this can't be done? Note, if we can price each strangifier than that should be sufficient as their price reflects demand for its type and its own price can applied as a bonus to the item it strangifies.

[Pyroman]

How does he even suggest for them? http://backpack.tf/vote/733/1100/0

I wonder how I totally missed this thread, heh.

 

Anyway, I used some of the scrpiting knowledge I had from school a few years ago, It's possible to modify the data in a suggestion page to suggest for something that isn't even supposed to be priceable (like the scrap, genuine uncraftable burning TC, normal burning strangifier trolls suggests I did yesterday lol).

e.g.

results in

http://backpack.tf/vote/id/523ce7724dd7b82b638b4568

[Teeird]

 

Ideas so far: 

• Add a bonus to these items if they have Strange along with another quality, similar to applied paints and strange parts, based on the Unique Strange variant price.
  • Less work for everyone involved, but less accurate in price. 

We all know how accurate bonus prices are.

[F CHARLIE]

We all know how accurate bonus prices are.

 

 

No one has liked my suggested change to paints but I said that we should use trade.tf's added paint value as the modifier.  Right now we just use a standard number why not use something that shows some kind of market data?

[AwesomeMcCoolName]

We all know how accurate bonus prices are.

No one has liked my suggested change to paints but I said that we should use trade.tf's added paint value as the modifier.  Right now we just use a standard number why not use something that shows some kind of market data?

Paint bonus: add 50%, no bonus limit. 

Part bonus: add 50%, no bonus limit 

Craft #s/special lvl vintages: cut the current bonus by like 60% and it'll be good. 

[F CHARLIE]

Paint bonus: add 50%, no bonus limit. 

Part bonus: add 50%, no bonus limit 

Craft #s/special lvl vintages: cut the current bonus by like 60% and it'll be good. 

 

 

I assume you have looked at the trade.tf paint bonus.

Example: Lack of hue adds a 4.66 - 5 ref bonus for the 2 key expenditure while a Manns Mint only adds ~1.22 for the ~5 ref expenditure.  I truly think this would be better than the current model and I know why the rest of you don't.

 

I do agree that the "strange" application should be flat but i don't think it can be 50%.  Look at the current market.  That would mean that the strangefier for the veil should be around 6 keys to match the reletive demand for the s veil.  I am thinking that the modifier should start at 100%  The reason is simple.  Different paints are appreciated by different tastes but their is no differentiation when strangifieing something.

 

 

Edit: There is no way to catch up with how many posts you have.

[AwesomeMcCoolName]

I assume you have looked at the trade.tf paint bonus.

Example: Lack of hue adds a 4.66 - 5 ref bonus for the 2 key expenditure while a Manns Mint only adds ~1.22 for the ~5 ref expenditure.  I truly think this would be better than the current model and I know why the rest of you don't.

 

I do agree that the "strange" application should be flat but i don't think it can be 50%.  Look at the current market.  That would mean that the strangefier for the veil should be around 6 keys to match the reletive demand for the s veil.  I am thinking that the modifier should start at 100%  The reason is simple.  Different paints are appreciated by different tastes but their is no differentiation when strangifieing something.

 

 

Edit: There is no way to catch up with how many posts you have.

I was referring to strange parts not strangifiers. I would assume strangifiers would hold a lot more of their value as on most hats you only have one choice (maybe 2). 

 

As for paints, I easily get 50% from Gold, purple, violet, black, white, mint, after 8, team paints, pink, lime, business pants, slate, grey, orange.

 

Its only green, brown, rustic, greed, musk, 216, olive, and drab that literally no one wants, and therefore become impossible to get more than a 1 rec or so. (and green/greed can usually fetch a bit more than the others)

[♠Derpeh♤]

I wonder how I totally missed this thread, heh.

 

Anyway, I used some of the scrpiting knowledge I had from school a few years ago, It's possible to modify the data in a suggestion page to suggest for something that isn't even supposed to be priceable (like the scrap, genuine uncraftable burning TC, normal burning strangifier trolls suggests I did yesterday lol).

e.g.

 

results in

http://backpack.tf/vote/id/523ce7724dd7b82b638b4568

 

There isnt a need to use scripting, think before you could just change the numbers for the link and it worked.

 

Ill link back when i find it

 

Nvm brad fixed it