@Mr. Bucket, @ConVict, @mods

[PPMja998 #BestFinalFantasy]

Not even going to try to rehash this whole situation. Will start out by saying I just recently started caring about what this site says people should pay for things a couple weeks ago, (and at this rate will stop caring again in the near future) so I'm new to this. Would like some clarification on a few things.

 

http://backpack.tf/vote/id/5237e8264dd7b86f7b8b4568 , recently passed crate 50 suggestion, 6

 

http://backpack.tf/vote/id/52354d774f96f4db1d8b456f , someone else's recently passed crate 50 suggestion, 5.5-6

 

Brief context: Suggestion passed at 5.5-6 while counter-suggestion up at the same time at a flat 6. About 4 of the 10 comment threads state directly that there is a counter-suggestion at the same time for 6 keys. 5.5-6 suggestion passed without any explanation, 6 key suggestion closed. 

 

Mr. Bucket in the new suggestion-

 

 

I actually didn't see your suggestion when I accepted the other one, apologies (not so say I would have accepted it, just saying)

 

This implies the comments weren't even read by the mod before the suggestion was passed. I'm going to just say here that I personally don't even vote on suggestions without reading the comments, don't know how you can accept a suggestion without them. Relevant counter-proof almost always there (and was in this case). And even without the comments, the evidence in general just wasn't there. 

 

And here's a veiled justification by conVict in the new suggestion before it was passed-

 

 

Suggestions are made for 1 purpose and 1 purpose only - to present proof and to have a discussion about the value of an item. That's it. Putting lots of unnecessary comments is what makes moderating so difficult because we go through and have to read every single comment. And when half the comments are useless, it just wastes time and sometimes results in things getting overlooked. 

We encourage people to speak their mind and have designed the forums specifically for that purpose. That is the appropriate place to voice your feelings and to call people out. NOT here. Reading 50 comments here that had nothing to do with the accuracy of this suggestion just wasted the time of anyone reading this suggestion.

 

Poor mods. Sorry, I don't feel bad about you having to read extra comments. Look I'd be okay with this justification if I didn't just see a suggestion get passed with the comments being completely ignored, I don't actively seek out drama but when I see blatant negligence I personally like to take action if I have the time (appears other people don't do this, just use these passed suggestions as evidence to say this site is shit, don't even make a counter-argument to correct a mistake, even though it definitely appears like you guys are interested in correcting your mistakes if you believe you've made one in a situation), and some reference to it needs to be there. There were no unnecessary comments in the falsely accepted suggestion. Fuck, there were no unnecessary comments in my old closed counter suggestion. The only reason the comments were long winded was because of a mod mistake in the first place. 

 

 

Honestly, this site blows my mind sometimes. From mods literally saying things along the lines of "I personally wouldn't have accepted" this suggestion, or that suggestion, to blatant suggestion farming (it's pretty easy to see that some mods go on suggestion sprees with like 30 second windows in-between, and that's just accepted suggestions, don't even see the ones they closed in the same time frame)... The former being a lazy shrug off of responsibility to this site as a whole, (making it clear that decisions are at least sometimes made autonomously, which is pretty ridiculous since that basically gives a mod the power to set a price solely based on their personal biased market opinion without valid proof/without even following their own rules that they tout on every rejected suggestion) and the latter being blatant negligence. it appears people have a point when shitting on this site, and I don't blame them for doing so, even though even doing it without actual evidence is still lazy as fuck and utterly pointless.

 

 

I have more qualms about this site, mostly relating to unusual pricing (this site is literally a running punchline on every unusual server that I've ever been on, and there is a reason for that), but I just want to leave this here about regular suggestions in general. Don't think I need more examples of mods being irrational, negligent, and forcing their market opinion on the spreadsheet, because this isn't a bashing/callout thread. Just speaking my mind/ giving a regular user's point of view on the situation, since this is where you told me to go for that. Negative constructive feedback is appreciated- would love to hear why this site is great, always right, and a large part of the community is wrong in disagreeing with many of the prices it passes as long as you have proof and not just an opinion, because I'm just not seeing it personally.

 

For the record, I would love for this site to be really solid, accurate, and to have a reputation of getting the "right" prices passed/not artificially inflating and deflating everything, but as of right now there is a lot that supports claims otherwise that I don't think anyone can really dispute. In my opinion, as it stands, this site kind of sucks, the quality is getting progressively worse, and it's sucking the tf2 economy down with it (which is already in a downturn for obvious reasons). Maybe something needs to change? Maybe mods should have a separate, visible vote on every suggestion, so it's not just 1 or 2 people that honestly don't have a better market understanding than the suggester, who then get to make an executive decision with very little accountability. That way at least it will show that all mods agreed on a price before it was passed... Maybe you need more mods, some people with specific knowledge in every single type of market, just accepting suggestions in that specific sector of the site- genuines, vintages, stranges, low tier, mid tier, high tier unusuals etc (for example, I personally have absolutely no experience in genuines and vintages, I consistently undervalue them, not even going to try to pretend I know the whole market at all times). You guys seem to be spread thin, but we all know there are blue belts who are willing to do your job. Although it's a stretch to say I trust some of their judgement, even with over 200 passed suggestions (which is bad), it's also a stretch to say I trust your judgement as mods in general (which is worse). Maybe you just need more oversight. I wont speculate what would be more helpful for the site, just throwing out suggestions, feel free to shoot them down/ignore them, again not the point of this thread necessarily. Thanks.

 

 

tl;dr Ron Paul 2014, fetti hype, rise of the stashes, rip in peace genuines

[AwesomeMcCoolName]

Not gonna lie, i skimmed over parts of it, so i do apologize if i ended up missing the gist of one of the points.

 

BUT, you have to understand something, there are 10+ pages of suggestions each day plus loads more troll suggestions that get closed immediately. Every once in a while a mistake is bound to happen. The mods aren't robots their people, and even they make mistakes. 

 

Now, this sites prices are actually quite accurate across the board (excluding unusuals/rare vintage-type items/bonuses--latter isn't really an issue though here). I've thought about having to have a majority of mods agree to pass a suggestion, but it would just be too time consuming to be viable. As for one mod having too much power, you can refute any decision made (on the forums) if you have proof to back up your claim. Plus, as far as i can tell, most of the mods aren't "devious" enough to screw with prices for their own benefit. Furthermore, there are much better ways to profit then to spend hours going through suggestions just to "make" an item .5 keys less than it should be, several hours work just isn't worth it. 

 

Btw, do explain how the economy is going down....there are currently more hats/stranges/items and users than EVER before. 

 

As for individual mods for individual items that already kind of exists now. Mods choose to deal with certain suggestions based on their comfort level.

 

I agree, some changes definitely do need to be made, but most of them revolve around unusual prices which get messed up every time a currency changes, and also get messed up as unusual pricing are very opinion-based. 

[F CHARLIE]

words

 

 

1000s of items in the game.  No one gets paid to do this and most everything, except unusuals, are very accurate.  All of that and this is a guide and trading resource jack**s not the price "bible".  Holy flame.  Yeah, kelly blue book gives you an idea what a car could be worth but that's it.  Good luck in that black and white world of yours.

 

 

Edit:  Unusual trading is a big crap shoot and all those jackoffs trying to yell about this site unusual pricing just hate it because they luv to lie about values.

 

Edit, edit;  Oh is ur avatar a guy kicking a pregnant woman, ur awesome.  gtfo

[Baloo]

I've spent less time on English essays.

[AwesomeMcCoolName]

1000s of items in the game.  No one gets paid to do this and most everything, except unusuals, are very accurate.  All of that and this is a guide and trading resource jack**s not the price "bible".  Holy flame.  Yeah, kelly blue book gives you an idea what a car could be worth but that's it.  Good luck in that black and white world of yours.

I've spent less time on English essays.

Not to be that person, but don't be the one to just make a comment that doesn't really help anything. 

 

This goes for everyone, try to avoid comments (even if they might be true/false/whatever), and focus more on asking/responding to actual points. 

 

A big problem with the forums (and i am definitely guilty of this myself) is that people end up coming here for the first time and get berrated by people who are regulars on the forums who know pretty much everyone and end up treating the forums like fb. There are times to be serious and times to just screw around. On people (newcomers) trades, and threads like this, things need to be taken seriously. Feel free to spam (well, not spam) regulars as they just won't care.

[F CHARLIE]

Not to be that person, but don't be the one to just make a comment that doesn't really help anything. 

 

This goes for everyone, try to avoid comments (even if they might be true/false/whatever), and focus more on asking/responding to actual points. 

 

A big problem with the forums (and i am definitely guilty of this myself) is that people end up coming here for the first time and get berrated by people who are regulars on the forums who know pretty much everyone and end up treating the forums like fb. There are times to be serious and times to just screw around. On people (newcomers) trades, and threads like this, things need to be taken seriously. Feel free to spam (well, not spam) regulars as they just won't care.

 

 

You know that I am not that person in any other situation.  His essay is without reason or understanding for a person who is intelligent, can express themselves well and appears to be rational otherwise.  Sorry, I just see it as a needless attack and I am not pleased.

[AwesomeMcCoolName]

You know that I am not that person in any other situation.  His essay is without reason or understanding for a person who is intelligent, can express themselves well and appears to be rational otherwise.  Sorry, I just see it as a needless attack and I am not pleased.

O, i agree, but "attacking" him isn't going to solve anything. 

[PPMja998 #BestFinalFantasy]

Expected this type of reaction, don't care, feel free to continue to not call people out in the non black and white world of yours when they make mistakes/ try not to make something better when you think it needs improvement.

[AwesomeMcCoolName]

Expected this type of reaction, don't care, feel free to continue to not call people out in the non black and white world of yours when they make mistakes/ try not to make something better when you think it needs improvement.

Way to just respond to the people who input nothing rather than the one person who seriously has issue with what you're saying. Like i said, these forums essentially have become fb where any bptf regular socializes with one another, asks questions/opinions/advice. So of course you're going to get a decent amount of hate when you shit-talk it without a lot of proof. 

[PPMja998 #BestFinalFantasy]

Way to just respond to the people who input nothing rather than the one person who seriously has issue with what you're saying. Like i said, these forums essentially have become fb where any bptf regular socializes with one another, asks questions/opinions/advice. So of course you're going to get a decent amount of hate when you shit-talk it without a lot of proof. 

 

Do you really want more proof? I can get more proof, but this wasn't intended to be a shit-talk post, and I wasn't intending it to be something like a bp.tf regular evidence "this is why this is this" post. Agreed responding to the most angry person wasn't the best idea, would be a lot better if I just ignored posts like that. I apologize to you directly for that, however at the same time, I wasn't looking for any justification from anyone on mods and their behavior in general. We are all aware that they have a lot on their plate, we are all aware that no mod is directly making decisions for their own benefit/gain. No one is doing anything devious here obviously. I agree people make mistakes, but there are too many, and there are too many people who are willing to either brush them aside or use them to damn this site in their own minds and to other people.

[AwesomeMcCoolName]

Do you really want more proof? I can get more proof, but this wasn't intended to be a shit-talk post, and I wasn't intending it to be something like a bp.tf regular evidence "this is why this is this" post. Agreed responding to the most angry person wasn't the best idea, would be a lot better if I just ignored posts like that. I apologize to you directly for that, however at the same time, I wasn't looking for any justification from anyone on mods and their behavior in general. We are all aware that they have a lot on their plate, we are all aware that no mod is directly making decisions for their own benefit/gain. No one is doing anything devious here obviously. I agree people make mistakes, but there are too many, and there are too many people who are willing to either brush them aside or use them to damn this site in their own minds and to other people.

As it stands right now, there are really only 2 arguments against backpack.tf. 1) Bp.tf manipulated key prices, which it didn't, and most of the people who believe that won't listen to anybody anyway. 2) Bp.tf's unusual prices suck (which they do and they don't. a lot of unusual pricing gets messed up by currency changes. 

[F CHARLIE]

Do you really want more proof? I can get more proof, but this wasn't intended to be a shit-talk post, and I wasn't intending it to be something like a bp.tf regular evidence "this is why this is this" post. Agreed responding to the most angry person wasn't the best idea, would be a lot better if I just ignored posts like that. I apologize to you directly for that, however at the same time, I wasn't looking for any justification from anyone on mods and their behavior in general. We are all aware that they have a lot on their plate, we are all aware that no mod is directly making decisions for their own benefit/gain. No one is doing anything devious here obviously. I agree people make mistakes, but there are too many, and there are too many people who are willing to either brush them aside or use them to damn this site in their own minds and to other people.

 

 

 

Listen, you will hear a lot of guys complaining about bp.tf prices but that does not represent the majority of users of this site or even the majority of traders.  Those people who complain are bothered because they can't get higher prices for their stuff than other sellers are asking.  It used to be that way because it is difficult to research every post just to get an average of what sellers are charging.  Those traders are living in the past.  Beyond this site, which is still the most highly regarded price guide, there is trade.tf which aggregates all trade offers for a given item for you so that it is difficult to sell many items above market not to mention the price-sheet there.

 

I apologize for my comments.  A lot of the guys here put in more work for this than anyone should be expected to and I have a lot of respect for their efforts.  I was reacting to that aspect of your thread.  Again, sorry.

[F CHARLIE]

As it stands right now, there are really only 2 arguments against backpack.tf. 1) Bp.tf manipulated key prices, which it didn't, and most of the people who believe that won't listen to anybody anyway. 2) Bp.tf's unusual prices suck (which they do and they don't. a lot of unusual pricing gets messed up by currency changes. 

 

 

 

Well, I believe way too many of the hats are overpriced and not in as much demand as they were.

[Liddojunior]

Mods are doing a perfect job on normal items.

 

 

Unusuals have pretty good pricing and lots of low tier unusuals are right on the dot. 

 

Only thing thats wrong with unusual prices are how fast the robo hats and new effect hats drop and get outdated and dont even make sense when comparing to each other. Some overclock > the terror watts 

 

And the usd does mess with things alot but so far its doing an excellent job for what its for. Giving you an idea of the hats value before you personally check the market and pricecheck yourself. 

 

No guideline should be expected right on the dot. 

[AwesomeMcCoolName]

Well, I believe way too many of the hats are overpriced and not in as much demand as they were.

Most hats i've dealt with are fine (vintages/genuines excluded as they just don't sell particularly well to begin with).

 

Care to name (and/or fix) specific examples?

[Triforce of Charmanders]

I've spent less time on English essays.

Ive spent less time on my will. 

 

Triforce's will

-Everyone gets jack shit

[PPMja998 #BestFinalFantasy]

Quick context on the quote from convict, if that had been on my festive scatter suggestion http://backpack.tf/vote/id/523621034f96f4bb1f8b456d I would totally understand because the actual suggestion itself was kind of unnecessarily troll-ey, however at one point every one of my comments was like -5 and above, needed to make a lot of justifications for my opinion at that point, and once again based on negligence.

[polar]

Quick context on the quote from convict, if that had been on my festive scatter suggestion http://backpack.tf/vote/id/523621034f96f4bb1f8b456d I would totally understand because the actual suggestion itself was kind of unnecessarily troll-ey, however at one point every one of my comments was like -5 and above, needed to make a lot of justifications for my opinion at that point, and once again based on negligence.

 

My comment was not directly at one suggestion or the other. It was also not necessarily directed at you but to anyone who read that thread. Lots of suggestions just have completely unnecessary comments that don't do anything. In the thick of 50 comments, one comment gets missed sometime. My point was for you to post any qualms you had here instead of in the suggestion itself which is what you were doing.

 

this site is literally a running punchline on every unusual server that I've ever been on, and there is a reason for that

 

Yeah, I think they are upset because lots of those guys can't shark people since there is a general guideline for unusuals now. Sure, it's not that great, but at least kids don't get sharked badly when they have a place to check for a general idea about what their hat might be worth. Obviously subtleties of robo effects dropping, etc. get lost in a simple spreadsheet.

[AwesomeMcCoolName]

Yeah, I think they are upset because lots of those guys can't shark people since there is a general guideline for unusuals now. Sure, it's not that great, but at least kids don't get sharked badly when they have a place to check for a general idea about what their hat might be worth. Obviously subtleties of robo effects dropping, etc. get lost in a simple spreadsheet.

+100000000

[Baloo]

+100000000

 

Not to be that person, but don't be the one to just make a comment that doesn't really help anything. 

 

This goes for everyone, try to avoid comments (even if they might be true/false/whatever), and focus more on asking/responding to actual points. 

 

A big problem with the forums (and i am definitely guilty of this myself)

 

-snip-

[AwesomeMcCoolName]

I was reinforcing a point and not just mocking/berating someone. 

 

/still different

[cleverpun]

By paragraph;

 

Mods aren't perfect. We do read every comment and check every link but things can and do get lost in the shuffle

 

While one suggestion doesn't necessarily have a lot of comments, the mods check more than one suggestion.

 

The mods have guidelines, but we are all individuals. We all have the site's best interests at heart, and the vast majority of the time we agree on things. That doesn't mean we don't have differing opinions, and the fact that eleven different people have as much consistency as they do is one reason I am so proud of our moderation team. We all take steps to avoid bias, but there are many ways to interpret data, regardless of its exact nature and especially with something as imprecise as TF2 pricing.

 

Obviously the mods work in bursts--we are volunteers. If a mod has time to look over one suggestion at the bus stop or to look over five on their lunch break there is nothing wrong with that. While it may not be ideal, it is certainly not "blatant negligence".

 

Others have already addressed this paragraph about unusual suggestions

 

The entire point of the system is that it contains checks and balances; the proof, voters, and mods all work in tandem to pass a suggestion, and while the mods have the most overt power the system is hardly broken. All the proof and comments are visible for anyone who wants to check them, and voters are welcome and encouraged to bring it up in the forums or to add mods to discuss decisions. We have guidelines for it over here.

 

While I can understand you are upset and emotions can run high in these situations, your immature attitude and vitriolic behavior reflects poorly on you, makes your arguments harder to take seriously, and discourages people from responding in a mature way. It is never a good idea to color critique with emotion, which you have done in spades (though exceptions are obviously made for critiquing art, whose point is to evoke emotion). If you would like to rewrite this in a more objective manner and repost it, PM me and I will be happy to lock/hide this topic for you

[jjjon123]

You may or may not know this already but Mr. Bucket and Puddington are our troopers on the "front-lines". They accept, reject, or pass over a majority of new suggestions once they reach ~8-12 hours old. They handle the bulk of the suggestions by basically just breezing over the proof and range moderating the obvious suggestions, and leaving the harder ones for later or for other mods. While I disagree with their methods, which often get them in trouble like in this case,  they are neccesary because of just the sheer number of suggestions that get made each day. If the mods spent as much time and effort on every suggestion as I do on the back suggestions (I often spend over 5 minutes on each suggestion since I focus on the ones everyone else doesn't want to do) then we would need twice as many mods to just scrape past each day. To get an idea of what would happen, take a look at steamrep, they have extremely long backlogs and they have to handle each case with extreme care because its someones entire trading career not just some suggestion.

 

While they often overlook small things and sometimes completely screw up a suggestion because of the way they handle suggestions, people like mr. bucket and puddington are needed to keep this site running smoothly. The amazing thing about backpack.tf is that if you feel that a mistake was made, you can just resuggest to fix the mistake, it will most likely be accepted as long as your proof is correct. If its more serious, you can bring it up in the forums like you did and the mods will deal with it.

 

I'm sorry that you lost faith in bp.tf and are leaving. Good luck with your trading career.

 

No one gets paid to do this

I don't think its supposed to be a secret but, yeah, we get paid a token salary.
 

[cleverpun]

 

I don't think its supposed to be a secret but, yeah, we get paid a token salary.

 

It's not a secret, Brad mentioned it in his Kritzkast interview.

 

A "salary" is a fixed number with certain legal connotations, though. The mods receiving a cut of donations is more like a stipend.

[MC22]

For the record, I would love for this site to be really solid, accurate, and to have a reputation of getting the "right" prices passed/not artificially inflating and deflating everything, but as of right now there is a lot that supports claims otherwise that I don't think anyone can really dispute. In my opinion, as it stands, this site kind of sucks, the quality is getting progressively worse, and it's sucking the tf2 economy down with it (which is already in a downturn for obvious reasons). Maybe something needs to change? Maybe mods should have a separate, visible vote on every suggestion, so it's not just 1 or 2 people that honestly don't have a better market understanding than the suggester, who then get to make an executive decision with very little accountability. That way at least it will show that all mods agreed on a price before it was passed... Maybe you need more mods, some people with specific knowledge in every single type of market, just accepting suggestions in that specific sector of the site- genuines, vintages, stranges, low tier, mid tier, high tier unusuals etc (for example, I personally have absolutely no experience in genuines and vintages, I consistently undervalue them, not even going to try to pretend I know the whole market at all times). You guys seem to be spread thin, but we all know there are blue belts who are willing to do your job. Although it's a stretch to say I trust some of their judgement, even with over 200 passed suggestions (which is bad), it's also a stretch to say I trust your judgement as mods in general (which is worse). Maybe you just need more oversight. I wont speculate what would be more helpful for the site, just throwing out suggestions, feel free to shoot them down/ignore them, again not the point of this thread necessarily. Thanks.

 

"In my opinion, as it stands, this site kind of sucks, the quality is getting progressively worse, and it's sucking the tf2 economy down with it"

could you back this up? This is a very heavy and seemingly unproven statement.

"Maybe mods should have a separate, visible vote on every suggestion, so it's not just 1 or 2 people that honestly don't have a better market understanding than the suggester, who then get to make an executive decision with very little accountability."

Imagine the influence this would put on voters.

"You guys seem to be spread thin, but we all know there are blue belts who are willing to do your job."

most of us blue belts do not meet age req.

"Although it's a stretch to say I trust some of their judgement, even with over 200 passed suggestions (which is bad), it's also a stretch to say I trust your judgement as mods in general (which is worse)"

I can say I trust my and the mod's judgement over yours.

"Maybe you just need more oversight."

Go in detail.

 

this is just one paragraph. I say before making a wide accusation please do a bit more research.