What does religion do for you?

[t0night]

 

"What does religion do for you?"

For me, person with brave heart cold head and logical thinking it does absolutely nothing. Surely, religion served some purposes – it kept people under control in middle ages and such, but progress pushed it out – from people's minds first, from governments second, and now it's just weird anachronism.

you're right! religion has not massively informed every society and culture going. it's not an important sociocultural guide, influence, set of practices, it does nothing regarding community cohesion, it isn't like a massive percentage of the world are still religious. religion can't inform your life in any other way than assuming direct control of your brain and making you into a zealous religio-zombie. (inb4 someone brings up extremism as though the point of extremism isn't that it's EXTREME and therefore non-representative)

 

in terms of dangerous ideologies that make people violent, fail to think for themselves and blindly respect entities, you could take a quick glance at american military culture... but no, it's those idiot religious people constantly making the world bad. pervasive greed, arrogance and cultural/military imperialism over the last ~75 years doesn't seem to fit in the blinkered view.

[Professional Map Painter]

you're right! religion has not massively informed every society and culture going. it's not an important sociocultural guide, influence, set of practices, it does nothing regarding community cohesion, it isn't like a massive percentage of the world are still religious. religion can't inform your life in any other way than assuming direct control of your brain and making you into a zealous religio-zombie. (inb4 someone brings up extremism as though the point of extremism isn't that it's EXTREME and therefore non-representative)

 

in terms of dangerous ideologies that make people violent, fail to think for themselves and blindly respect entities, you could take a quick glance at american military culture... but no, it's those idiot religious people constantly making the world bad. pervasive greed, arrogance and cultural/military imperialism over the last ~75 years doesn't seem to fit in the blinkered view.

 

http://www.patheos.com/blogs/friendlyatheist/2012/08/10/survey-says-atheism-is-on-the-rise-worldwide-and-in-america/- quite a few people can think freely without religion

 

"american military culture"

 

WW1 - joined in 1917

WW2 - joined in late 1941 after being attacked

Korea - joined after the South was attacked

Vietnam - debatable

Iraq - Bush is an idiot

Syria - never officially declared war

 

Extremists are more of a problem - ISIS and Al-Qaeda may be the most siginficant groups today but hundreds have emerged over the past century. Though it would help if the US stopped funding their future enemies.

[Hyperqube]

> > For all of you religious people out there, what does religion do for you?

 

> rape children and cause suicide.

 

LOL. how can you post here if your religion causes you to commit suicide

 

 

 

> Surely, religion served some purposes – it kept people under control in middle ages and such

 

"and such" ?  Do note that, thanks to religion, that science owes religon a big debpt too: it were the monks who didn't have to fight in wars or work on the land - but instead learned to read & write.  Many universities were establieshed under religious orders (like the Jezuits), and people delivered people like friar Gregor Mendel (the father of modern genetics) or priest george lemaitre (the big bang theory)

[Professional Map Painter]

> Surely, religion served some purposes – it kept people under control in middle ages and such

 

"and such" ? Do note that, thanks to religion, that science owes religon a big debpt too: it were the monks who didn't have to fight in wars or work on the land - but instead learned to read & write. Many universities were establieshed under religious orders (like the Jezuits), and people delivered people like friar Gregor Mendel (the father of modern genetics) or priest george lemaitre (the big bang theory)

ahem,

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Galen#Reintroduction_to_the_Latin_West+ http://www.famousscientists.org/andreas-vesalius/

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Galileo_affair, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aristarchus_of_Samos- even the Greeks knew about heliocentrism

http://www.ox.ac.uk/news/2014-01-23-ancient-carthaginians-really-did-sacrifice-their-children

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muslim_conquests- thousands of structures (deemed to be "idols") were destroyed

http://www.economist.com/blogs/democracyinamerica/2011/07/taxation-and-church - as well as this, the current pope has ties to the corrupt Argentine government (which itself is heavily linked to the original junta)

http://www.historylearningsite.co.uk/tudor-england/the-reformation/- one man's crusade against anti-divorce measures

http://www.aztec-history.com/aztec-sacrifice.html

 

Rape/suicide is definitely not exclusive to religion, though.

[t0night]

1

http://www.patheos.com/blogs/friendlyatheist/2012/08/10/survey-says-atheism-is-on-the-rise-worldwide-and-in-america/- quite a few people can think freely without religion

2

WW1 - joined in 1917

WW2 - joined in late 1941 after being attacked

Korea - joined after the South was attacked

Vietnam - debatable

Iraq - Bush is an idiot

Syria - never officially declared war

 

Extremists are more of a problem - ISIS and Al-Qaeda may be the most siginficant groups today but hundreds have emerged over the past century. Though it would help if the US stopped funding their future enemies.

1: Never stated that religion was a prerequisite for free thought, but you're getting really good at this strawman thing.

2: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_authoritarian_regimes_supported_by_the_United_States

http://academic.evergreen.edu/g/grossmaz/interventions.html

https://www.iraqbodycount.org/

http://web.law.columbia.edu/sites/default/files/microsites/human-rights-institute/COLUMBIACounting%20Drone%20Strike%20DeathsSUMMARY.pdf

also "we haven't called it a war so it doesn't count" isn't the best rationale for american military intervention. Syria wasn't top of my list anyway, but still.

 

also: american military culture is also about (among many many other things) turning a blind eye to the utterly insane level of military spending and getting enraged by people on food stamps. it's about endless homage to "veterans who fought for your freedom". it's about the whole construct that america is out there fighting wars for its freedom.

[Professional Map Painter]

1: Never stated that religion was a prerequisite for free thought, but you're getting really good at this strawman thing.

2: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_authoritarian_regimes_supported_by_the_United_States

http://academic.evergreen.edu/g/grossmaz/interventions.html

https://www.iraqbodycount.org/

http://web.law.columbia.edu/sites/default/files/microsites/human-rights-institute/COLUMBIACounting%20Drone%20Strike%20DeathsSUMMARY.pdf

also "we haven't called it a war so it doesn't count" isn't the best rationale for american military intervention. Syria wasn't top of my list anyway, but still.

 

also: american military culture is also about (among many many other things) turning a blind eye to the utterly insane level of military spending and getting enraged by people on food stamps. it's about endless homage to "veterans who fought for your freedom". it's about the whole construct that america is out there fighting wars for its freedom.

Their military spending is certainly high for a country that hasn't been occupied by a foreign power since 1812. Vietnam and Iraq were a waste of resources (iirc the Americans friendly fire rate is atrocious), but WW1/2 + Korea were not. Supporting authoritarian regimes is obviously not morally correct, but in some (not all) cases it was the lesser of two evils.

 

"an important sociocultural guide, influence, set of practices, it does nothing regarding community cohesion," - agnosticism/atheism can easily provide the same thing (morals) and doesn't require blind faith. Surely being able to question thousand year old documents written by undetermined authors and/or various translators is the logical thing to do? I don't need a book or organised religion to provide me with a set of guidelines, that without I would become a thief/murderer etc.

[Hyperqube]

ahem,

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Galen#Reintroduction_to_the_Latin_West+ http://www.famousscientists.org/andreas-vesalius/

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Galileo_affair, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aristarchus_of_Samos- even the Greeks knew about heliocentrism

http://www.ox.ac.uk/news/2014-01-23-ancient-carthaginians-really-did-sacrifice-their-children

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muslim_conquests- thousands of structures (deemed to be "idols") were destroyed

http://www.economist.com/blogs/democracyinamerica/2011/07/taxation-and-church - as well as this, the current pope has ties to the corrupt Argentine government (which itself is heavily linked to the original junta)

http://www.historylearningsite.co.uk/tudor-england/the-reformation/- one man's crusade against anti-divorce measures

http://www.aztec-history.com/aztec-sacrifice.html

 

I fail to see your point. Are you arguing that because bad stuff happens good stuff magically didn't happen anymore?

Because my point was that people tend not to realise what religion DID do for science - only where it failed...

 

it's quite interesting you mention the greek knowing about heliocentrism: You know this guy named Nicolaus Copernicus? Guess who was a clergy-man? Guess who funded his education?

 

Anthropology, archaeology, architecture, astronomy, biology, botany, cartography, crystallography, eductaion, geology, logic, maths, medicine (incl. vaccinations), meteorology, metaphysics, physics (be it electicity, optics, hydraulics, ...), psychology, zoology, ...  Name any field, and you'll probbably find positive influences of religion in it

 

 

To say "it kept people under control in middle ages and such" ...  that's just pretty much a smack in the face of history.

[t0night]

Their military spending is certainly high for a country that hasn't been occupied by a foreign power since 1812. Vietnam and Iraq were a waste of resources (iirc the Americans friendly fire rate is atrocious), but WW1/2 + Korea were not. Supporting authoritarian regimes is obviously not morally correct, but in some (not all) cases it was the lesser of two evils.

 

"an important sociocultural guide, influence, set of practices, it does nothing regarding community cohesion," - agnosticism/atheism can easily provide the same thing (morals) and doesn't require blind faith. Surely being able to question thousand year old documents written by undetermined authors and/or various translators is the logical thing to do? I don't need a book or organised religion to provide me with a set of guidelines, that without I would become a thief/murderer etc.

it's indefensible to spend that much on a military that has had so little to do with self defense and everything to do with ideological and economic motivation to murderously interfere in so many nations. so many times, so many civilian casualties, and so many evil regimes. The US military has and will be a much bigger threat (by orders of magnitude) to the lives of the average citizen of the world than any extremist group could ever hope to be.

 

i'm not saying you do need to 'have blind faith' to build a society (although construing all religion as 'blind faith' is again a very limited and limiting perspective and in practice building a society from nothing never happens so we can't empirically test anything about that here), i'm not saying religion is a requirement in a hypothetical future society. i'm asking you to recognise the immense value of religion to societies now and in the past that actually have existed and that continue to exist.

[Professional Map Painter]

I fail to see your point. Are you arguing that because bad stuff happens good stuff magically didn't happen anymore?

Because my point was that people tend not to realise what religion DID do for science - only where it failed...

 

it's quite interesting you mention the greek knowing about heliocentrism: You know this guy named Nicolaus Copernicus? Guess who was a clergy-man? Guess who funded his education?

 

Anthropology, archaeology, architecture, astronomy, biology, botany, cartography, crystallography, eductaion, geology, logic, maths, medicine (incl. vaccinations), meteorology, metaphysics, physics (be it electicity, optics, hydraulics, ...), psychology, zoology, ...  Name any field, and you'll probbably find positive influences of religion in it

 

 

To say "it kept people under control in middle ages and such" ...  that's just pretty much a smack in the face of history.

And I could just as easily find negative influences - it's not simply black and white. The most effective research is often done in times of prosperity, cultural revolution or war. Religion itself is a very effective method of control - countless examples of this exist (holy wars, sacrifices, church tithes + papal investiture/threat of excommunication if taxes not paid, extremists in general, Teutonic Order, organised religion's success at largely eradicating paganism, discrimination in faith schools etc). Nazism and Stalinism would be examples of nonreligious methods of control, as was Code Napoleon. Religions also often merge ideas for cultural reasons i.e the Romans adopted Etruscan and Greek gods but not Carthaginian gods, for political reasons; or the Catholic Church adopted Christmas trees from the Pomeranians and then proceeded to slaughter them.

 

 

"Men think epilepsy divine, merely because they do not understand it… We will one day understand what causes it, and then cease to call it divine" - Hippocrates

 

"All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident." -

Arthur Schopenhauer

[t0night]

And I could just as easily find negative influences - it's not simply black and white.

nobody is saying that religion unilaterally amazing and perfect, yet you continue to argue like that's the position people hold. we're literally just trying to get you to see that it has had and continues to have immense value which you are completely ignoring in favour of saying "but hey it's also been used for bad things" as if that's exclusive to religion.

 

Matthew Arnold wrote about the decline of religion as a means of repression and he was writing in the late Victorian period (and was quite concerned about how best to put something else in its place, in his view it should be literature). Althusser notes the rise of Education as the primary method of ideological initiation in modern societies since the decline of the Church in the West, and he was writing about 45 years ago.

 

your obsessive need to come back to religion as controlling, blinding, manipulative and illogical is just weird in the face of historical and cultural fact.

[Professional Map Painter]

nobody is saying that religion unilaterally amazing and perfect, yet you continue to argue like that's the position people hold. we're literally just trying to get you to see that it has had and continues to have immense value which you are completely ignoring in favour of saying "but hey it's also been used for bad things" as if that's exclusive to religion.

 

Matthew Arnold wrote about the decline of religion as a means of repression and he was writing in the late Victorian period (and was quite concerned about how best to put something else in its place, in his view it should be literature). Althusser notes the rise of Education as the primary method of ideological initiation in modern societies since the decline of the Church in the West, and he was writing about 45 years ago.

 

your obsessive need to come back to religion as controlling, blinding, manipulative and illogical is just weird in the face of historical and cultural fact.

Of course that's not the viewpoint people hold, they are simply making points in favour and we're then debating them.

 

The majority of free schools were run by the Church until the mid 20th century iirc, and so provided free lessons in religious ideology. Of course modern religion is less manipulative and controllable nowadays (bar extremists) because of the widespread availability of free education. Beforehand, it was effectively mass suggestion - few challenged the existing order unless they could gather enough followers, for fear of being branded a heretic. Organised religion is very similar to a state, and absolute power corrupts abosuletly. Was it not Constantine (many Romans became converts - why exactly do people convert?) who said "In this sign you will conquer"?

 

But as I said, it is not black and white, countless ancient textbooks were saved by Muslim scholars, and at least some of the churches large tax revenue was spent on education. It would however be ideal if one's choice of religion depended on their beliefs rather than their upbringing.

 

Missionaries were commonplace, and their attempts to convert people to the "one true faith" led to Japan's isolation from the world. Not to mention, some religions took ideas from others as I have stated above, but most offer a different path to salvation. Whilst religion has contributed to technological and scientific advancements (yes, see, religion has some benefits), it has also hindered them. I wonder where we would be without religion - in a better or worse situation than we are now?

 

Of course you could always providence evidence of religion not being a method of control, but it was certainly effective in replacing Hellenistic/Roman, Germanic, Slavic and Native religions. From there , the church/caliphate leader held great power, even with the Great Schism/Reformation + Sunni/Shia split. Even the Mongols were culturally assimilated over time (yes, religion is heavily linked to culture and upbringing - it should be a choice rather than depend on your location of birth). Then there's the whole Guelphs and the Ghibellines ordeal - so much for Charlemagne's Holy Roman Empire.

[thecityburns2day]

It doesn't do anything for me now. I grew up in a pretty chill church, but after I moved out of my home tome during 11th grade, I tried to keep in contact with some of the church members. They'd never answer back when I message them on FB. None tried to talk to me on their own if I didn't initiate the conversation. If the people I grew up with who touted their beliefs so loudly wouldn't even give me the time of day, how is their god any different? I'm not exactly atheist but....

[t0night]

Of course that's not the viewpoint people hold, they are simply making points in favour and we're then debating them.

 

do you recognise or not that religion is and was and will be more than simply a mind control exercise?

 

of course it was used, as is any ideological form, for political purposes. i'm just confused by your single-mindedness.

[Apo]

Seems like the discussion has gotten a little bit off-topic.

 

What does religion do for you?

 

(In advance, I'd like to say that I don't mean to offend anyone here)

I'm not sure if its the way I was raised, with a non-religous family and an athiest father, but whenever I hear people praying to this "god" character, I just look at them as ignorant. People try to back it up with coincidences that the religious community declares as miracles and such. I just don't get religion, and why some people are super religious. It makes no sense to me. For all of you religious people out there, what does religion do for you? How has it improved your life and do you TRULY beleive in an all seing "god?"

[Hyperqube]

> > my point was that people tend not to realise what religion DID do for science - only where it failed...

 

> And I could just as easily find negative influences

 

Do you even read what I type?

[Professional Map Painter]

do you recognise or not that religion is and was and will be more than simply a mind control exercise?

 

of course it was used, as is any ideological form, for political purposes. i'm just confused by your single-mindedness.

This isn't 1984, it's not mind control. Sure, religion offers hope to those that follow it, but it would be more justified if the person following it chose to out of their own free will, instead of their upbringing i.e children should be taught about religion/agnosticism when they're mentally capable to make such a decision, and then be free to choose their religion or non-religion. Sure, Sunday Schools are a fun environment but they're also good at indoctrinating.

[Heated Bread]

Sunday school is daycare with indoctrination.  They made us memorize and recite bible passages and gave us all this brainwashing material to go home with.  Better than sitting through the service with the adults though.  At least there were coloring books and connect the dot puzzles.  I think I still have my kid-friendly book of old testament stories.  That might be interesting to read again...

[Ford Prefect]

 

 

 

 

Oi, what's the point of quoting me? I answered the question. I am here not to discuss or complain. As a mature person with solid mind I clearly see no chances of changing the point of view of any of us. You want to do some rituals? Want to tell to unknown man in a robe about your fap last night sins? You believe that if you do right things you deserve 33 virgins in a heavens? Or you believe that if you do bad things you will be a stone in next life? Sure, I think you live in a free land, do whatever you want.

[Hyperqube]

> Oi, what's the point of quoting me? I answered the question. I am here not to discuss or complain.

 

I'm not discussing on you answering the question - and on what religion did for you

I'm pointing out that "it kept people under control in middle ages and such" is a pretty distorted view

 

> You want to do some rituals?

not particulary. I'm an agnost.

[Karam]

You asked for my opinion .. so for me it gives me a purpose of life. 

 

On a side note, isn't calling religious people arrogant make you any less of an arrogant yourself ?

[t0night]

. I am here not to discuss

then don't post at all. it's a forum thread. expect discussion.

[t0night]

This isn't 1984, it's not mind control. Sure, religion offers hope to those that follow it, but it would be more justified if the person following it chose to out of their own free will, instead of their upbringing i.e children should be taught about religion/agnosticism when they're mentally capable to make such a decision, and then be free to choose their religion or non-religion. Sure, Sunday Schools are a fun environment but they're also good at indoctrinating.

you seem determined not to see that religion offers so much more to the world than a means of control and power. it's not just "hope"... it's a fundamental part of the way most people in the world live their lives. religion and culture are inseparable to many. it permeates so much and affects so much. it's philosophy, music, art, science, literature, a thousand world views and stories and mantras and metaphors. it's amazing and beautiful in so many ways; but all you want to talk about is that it's not rational and that as a dominant ideological form it is often exploited as a means of control. religion isn't, in most cultures, about having made a choice to believe in it, and i don't think that's necessarily something people think is wrong. people don't feel deceived about not having picked out their religion like they would pick out a carrot in a grocery store. it's lived and experienced and understood as something real and there's nothing inherently wrong with that. it's about sharing a massive part of your culture and heritage with the community you live with. the fact that you don't choose it, that in many ways you can be born into it, doesn't make it evil. we are all still products of the culture we are born into, to a very large extent. religion is just a facet of that, which we feel (in some parts of Western society) is now abnormal to think about in terms of being born into.

[Professional Map Painter]

you seem determined not to see that religion offers so much more to the world than a means of control and power. it's not just "hope"... it's a fundamental part of the way most people in the world live their lives. religion and culture are inseparable to many. it permeates so much and affects so much. it's philosophy, music, art, science, literature, a thousand world views and stories and mantras and metaphors. it's amazing and beautiful in so many ways; but all you want to talk about is that it's not rational and that as a dominant ideological form it is often exploited as a means of control. religion isn't, in most cultures, about having made a choice to believe in it, and i don't think that's necessarily something people think is wrong. people don't feel deceived about not having picked out their religion like they would pick out a carrot in a grocery store. it's lived and experienced and understood as something real and there's nothing inherently wrong with that. it's about sharing a massive part of your culture and heritage with the community you live with. the fact that you don't choose it, that in many ways you can be born into it, doesn't make it evil. we are all still products of the culture we are born into, to a very large extent. religion is just a facet of that, which we feel (in some parts of Western society) is now abnormal to think about in terms of being born into.

Just because religion is a part of culture does not make it morally correct - http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-india-32444349

 

FYI I never denied that it was interlinked with culture, but this isn't always a good thing - religious freedom should be prioritised over cultural background. Russian culture was one of the few things that didn't decline under the Soviets.

[Ford Prefect]

then don't post at all.

 

OP asked my answer, and I'm answered. Sorry for not asking you before.

 

I'm pointing out that is a pretty distorted view

 

I'm pointing out that it's my opinion, and that is a pretty clear view in my opinion. Should be mentioned that you see religion in past with pretty naive view, with pink colours, with ponies and magic and friendship and such. I see you like Italic, so I'll use it too. Were started dozens of wars because of religion, were killed many thousands in witchhunt and heresy prosecutions, were invented nearly hundred ways of torturing people, for the love of god for sure. Still want to see my full point? When you say "religion was full of knowledge and friendship in this ages", in my eyes it's equals to "Hitler was right because Josef Mengele's unhuman researches and experiments pushed modern medicine further".

[SilverSpeed]

Religion really brings the people of this forum together like a family.

 

For me personally religion has done nothing but harm me, my mother's side of the family is conservative catholic and as such homosexuality isn't something looked upon with the most acceptance.

So from a youngish age I was going to church and around the sixth grade I began to understand how I felt towards people of the same sex but reading the few things in the bible related to homosexuality and hearing what other people said made me question if I was normal or if something was wrong with me.

I of course understand now that I'm normal for the most part but there was a period of time where religion made me question what I am.

This is just my experience and I understand everyone has a different one so I don't hold it against every religious person for my bad experiences.