Milz187 Posted June 8, 2015 Share Posted June 8, 2015 First I'll point out that I have been marked as a scammer for a single non scamming offense this ban came from the way of FoG, to my knowledge I have never used the FoG services. Details can be found here http://www.reddit.com/r/tf2/comments/38ur8w/ive_been_unjustly_marked_as_a_scammer_on_steamrep/| http://www.reddit.com/r/tf2/comments/2zzuol/i_went_from_having_one_of_the_best_safest_trading/ I have used Backpack.TF and am a premium customer but due to FoG banning me from their services I am now banned from services of backpack.tf. Backpack.tf and other communities have had knowledge of the issue and deemed that 2 week ban was sufficient and it was not a permanent ban offense. Most other communities did not ban me at all. My question is why does FoG have the power to impose permanent bans on backpack.tf when for the same case backpack.tf only imposes 2 week bans. I am being told for me to get unbanned I need to appeal to FoG, I really don't see how this is a fair and sensible system. I know threads can go off topic quick so I will like to request we keep this on top and flame free, the topic being why does FoG able to dictate backpack.tf bans. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vaccinated Autist Posted June 8, 2015 Share Posted June 8, 2015 SteamRep Mark = Automatic permanent ban on backpack.tf until you get your mark removed Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Дебра Posted June 8, 2015 Share Posted June 8, 2015 Because trading with marked scammers = ban Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Milz187 Posted June 8, 2015 Author Share Posted June 8, 2015 Because trading with marked scammers = ban In my case it wasn't for backpack.tf, it was a 2 week ban, this is what I am getting at. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
polar Posted June 8, 2015 Share Posted June 8, 2015 Our job as moderators on bp.tf is not to go out looking for people to ban, particularly in cases of scamming and trading with scammers. These cases require a lot of time and thorough research. We still do so in whatever free time we have left after shouldering a load of 7000+ suggestion load per month + 200+ tickets per day + forum moderating. So not much time. It is for this reason that we go with SteamRep on all reports because their job is set exclusively for these purposes for which we don't have the time to devote all our energies. SteamRep has vouched for FoG as an affiliate and have presumably vetted them. If they are good enough for SR, then they are good enough for us. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Milz187 Posted June 8, 2015 Author Share Posted June 8, 2015 Our job as moderators on bp.tf is not to go out looking for people to ban, particularly in cases of scamming and trading with scammers. These cases require a lot of time and thorough research. We still do so in whatever free time we have left after shouldering a load of 7000+ suggestion load per month + 200+ tickets per day + forum moderating. So not much time. It is for this reason that we go with SteamRep on all reports because their job is set exclusively for these purposes for which we don't have the time to devote all our energies. SteamRep has vouched for FoG as an affiliate and have presumably vetted them. If they are good enough for SR, then they are good enough for us. That makes sense, it's in your interested and to work of the back of a system that is designed to filter out the scammers. My concern is that there's some issues where both backpack.tf and FoG have shown a different perspective, with FoG to some extent having some sort of over ruling. In my case, it was felt when the incident happened that I should not be perm banned by your rules but due to the nature of the agreement between FoG and SR they have in a way the power to overrule your judegement. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
polar Posted June 8, 2015 Share Posted June 8, 2015 That makes sense, it's in your interested and to work of the back of a system that is designed to filter out the scammers. My concern is that there's some issues where both backpack.tf and FoG have shown a different perspective, with FoG to some extent having some sort of over ruling. In my case, it was felt when the incident happened that I should not be perm banned by your rules but due to the nature of the agreement between FoG and SR they have in a way the power to overrule your judegement. Yeah, it has happened from time to time. In cases where we disagree, we assume that they have more experience than we do and that they did more research into the case, so we defer to their judgment. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Milz187 Posted June 8, 2015 Author Share Posted June 8, 2015 Yeah, it has happened from time to time. In cases where we disagree, we assume that they have more experience than we do and that they did more research into the case, so we defer to their judgment. I understand, what about the cases where they have not done extra research or if they have they use a flawed assumption to post a ban? How I see it, these cases just fall through the cracks. It's a flawed approach and innocent people get caught but it is also a easier and simpler approach for backpack.tf which is why I guess it's being used. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Дебра Posted June 8, 2015 Share Posted June 8, 2015 I understand, what about the cases where they have not done extra research or if they have they use a flawed assumption to post a ban? How I see it, these cases just fall through the cracks. It's a flawed approach and innocent people get caught but it is also a easier and simpler approach for backpack.tf which is why I guess it's being used. Hello we are backpack.tf and it is a-ok to trade with this guy even though you will get marked on steamrep for doing so. Doesn't quite work does it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LaughingLollipop Posted June 8, 2015 Share Posted June 8, 2015 First I'll point out that I have been marked as a scammer for a single non scamming offense this ban came from the way of FoG, to my knowledge I have never used the FoG services. Details can be found here http://www.reddit.com/r/tf2/comments/38ur8w/ive_been_unjustly_marked_as_a_scammer_on_steamrep/| http://www.reddit.com/r/tf2/comments/2zzuol/i_went_from_having_one_of_the_best_safest_trading/ I have used Backpack.TF and am a premium customer but due to FoG banning me from their services I am now banned from services of backpack.tf. Backpack.tf and other communities have had knowledge of the issue and deemed that 2 week ban was sufficient and it was not a permanent ban offense. Most other communities did not ban me at all. My question is why does FoG have the power to impose permanent bans on backpack.tf when for the same case backpack.tf only imposes 2 week bans. I am being told for me to get unbanned I need to appeal to FoG, I really don't see how this is a fair and sensible system. I know threads can go off topic quick so I will like to request we keep this on top and flame free, the topic being why does FoG able to dictate backpack.tf bans. oh I've been looking forward to this hurr durr I just conduct $3000+ trades all day on a whim during SRs 1% downtime you get SR marked = you get bp.tf banned, lmfao :') it'd be a dis-service to the community if the site allowed people who are known scammers to attempt to lure victims from it's userbase. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Milz187 Posted June 8, 2015 Author Share Posted June 8, 2015 it'd be a dis-service to the community if the site allowed people who are known scammers to attempt to lure victims from it's userbase. What did I scam to be called a known scammer? But yeah your going off topic. The topic is about the influence of FoG over Backpack.tfs banning. Please keep on topic or don't post. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sulker Posted June 8, 2015 Share Posted June 8, 2015 Presumably your argument operates on the premise that you are innocent: however, more or less knowingly trading with a scammer for $3000+ in items, not bothering to check SteamRep when it went back up suggests that the only real question here is your own trading ethics. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
♠Derpeh♤ Posted June 8, 2015 Share Posted June 8, 2015 What did I scam to be called a known scammer? But yeah your going off topic. The topic is about the influence of FoG over Backpack.tfs banning. Please keep on topic or don't post. FoG is a Steamrep affiliate/partner their judgement is equivalent of steamrep mark (If they did their job and didnt take years to do anything). Backpack.tf being affiliated with steamrep have agreed on imposing the same rules in regards to trading hence a ban on steamrep would mean a ban over here. One of the rules of steamrep is to not trade with marked scammers and you have made a very high value trade with a marked scammer and the excuse/reason was that steamrep was temporarily down hence you went through with the trade. Being a high tier trader with a lot of experience decided to go through with it without properly checking the background of the seller. Regardless if you overpaid by a large amount or not the rule was placed to removed scammers from the economy, if users dont buy scammed items then there is no incentive to scam. If anything you overpaying is even worse. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Milz187 Posted June 8, 2015 Author Share Posted June 8, 2015 Presumably your argument operates on the premise that you are innocent: however, more or less knowingly trading with a scammer for $3000+ in items, not bothering to check SteamRep when it went back up suggests that the only real question here is your own trading ethics. I've traded for 5 years, in that time paid for a Burning Team Captain for pure $$$ and most of my trades are high value. As per the SR rules I should not have a Ban. This was my 1st issue in 5 years and I have been constantly been trading high tier items. It was a mistake, I wasn't intending to profit as I had overpaid for the item, I didn't not get a good deal and wasn't looking to profit, it was a I'll like to own that beast kind of trade. If I had known then I wouldn't have traded, it makes no sense for me to have traded if I had known. Show me where in the SR rules that say I should have a ban, FoG is dictating their own rules and I am banned here based off FoG rules and not SR rules. This is the core issue. But all this is besides the point of the OP and is going off topic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Milz187 Posted June 8, 2015 Author Share Posted June 8, 2015 FoG is a Steamrep affiliate/partner their judgement is equivalent of steamrep mark (If they did their job and didnt take years to do anything). Backpack.tf being affiliated with steamrep have agreed on imposing the same rules in regards to trading hence a ban on steamrep would mean a ban over here. One of the rules of steamrep is to not trade with marked scammers and you have made a very high value trade with a marked scammer and the excuse/reason was that steamrep was temporarily down hence you went through with the trade. Being a high tier trader with a lot of experience decided to go through with it without properly checking the background of the seller. Regardless if you overpaid by a large amount or not the rule was placed to removed scammers from the economy, if users dont buy scammed items then there is no incentive to scam. If anything you overpaying is even worse. Yes, a ban on SteamRep but this is a ban on FoG and if this had gone through the SteamRep rules then I would not have been banned. If you look at the SteamRep rules which backpack.tf is following you will see I should not have a ban, below is a paste of the relivent parts. The issue is FoG is going outside of the scope of the SteamRep rules when placing bans. First offense: Item/Game trades: You will receive a one-time warning for any high-value item or game trade with a BANNED account or an obvious scammer alternate account. (This warning will be a temporary CAUTION tag that will be removed when you contact SteamRep admins.) Important Notes:​ Anyone has the right to one appeal. You should appeal if you feel the evidence is incorrect or you feel the penalty is too harsh. Ultimately, if it's very clear you were purposely trying to profit from scammed or stolen items, you deserve a BANNED tag at admin discretion. Even if you disagree with someone else's BANNED reputation tag, trading with them is still considered "Trading with a Scammer". Just because you trust them not to scam you, it doesn't mean they aren't selling stolen merchandise they took from someone else. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
♠Derpeh♤ Posted June 8, 2015 Share Posted June 8, 2015 -snip- I can't read the FoG comments because them being very transparent and all decided to deleted all the comments so I cannot follow their logic. However from n0name's comment: "Adding to that, if his claims are true, he most likely already knew about Earl and his history." He came to the conclusion (through the deleted comments?) that you knowingly traded with a marked scammer which is a instant mark regardless of if you have broken any rules before. The first offence serves as a warning to remind you that you need to check the background of those you trade, it's on the basis that you accidentally traded with a marked user. However because FoG arrived at the conclusion that you knew it was a marked scammer and still went through with it was probably why you were marked instantly without the warning. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Milz187 Posted June 8, 2015 Author Share Posted June 8, 2015 I can't read the FoG comments because them being very transparent and all decided to deleted all the comments so I cannot follow their logic. However from n0name's comment: "3) Adding to that, if his claims are true, he most likely already knew about Earl and his history." He came to the conclusion (through the deleted comments?) that you knowingly traded with a marked scammer which is a instant mark regardless of if you have broken any rules before. The first offence serves as a warning to remind you that you need to check the background of those you trade, it's on the basis that you accidentally traded with a marked user. However because FoG arrived at the conclusion that you knew it was a marked scammer and still went through with it was probably why you were marked instantly without the warning. He couldn't have came to that conclusion as I didn't not know that he was listed. In the report I have asked them not to assume as they should not be assuming. As SteamRep rules state it needs to be clear. And no even me knowing which I didn't isn't an instant mark, the instant mark is for people purposely trading with scammers for profit. I did not make any and overpaid for the item, SR bans people trading with scammers not for mistakes but for purposely trading with scammer for profit. The rules are clear in this regards. They have ruled outside of SR rules and Backpack.TF and other communities have banned me not off SR rules but FoG rules. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
♠Derpeh♤ Posted June 8, 2015 Share Posted June 8, 2015 He couldn't have came to that conclusion as I didn't not know that he was listed. In the report I have asked them not to assume as they should not be assuming. As SteamRep rules state it needs to be clear. Just to be clear I was basing my reply off his comments in the report because they have deleted all other comments and we dont know what he was discussing between the other mods. From his response he came to the conclusion that you knew you were trading with a marked scammer hence "he most likely already knew about Earl and his history". Also knowingly trading with a marked scammer will be a instant ban regardless of the reason. Eg, the burning TC one of it's current owners was a well respected trader but just really really wanted a burning TC and only one available at the time was from a scammer and he bought it for a decent price. Still instantly banned regardless for knowingly trading with a scammer. If n0name came to that conclusion you would be no exception. You need to make sure exactly what the reason it was that he banned you before you start complaining everywhere about them overstepping boundaries. From your perspective they have stepped out side of their boundaries and banned you unjustly. However if they had additional proof and/or some reason which made them think that you knowingly traded with a marked scammed the ban would be justified in my books. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Milz187 Posted June 8, 2015 Author Share Posted June 8, 2015 Just to be clear I was basing my reply off his comments in the report because they have deleted all other comments and we dont know what he was discussing between the other mods. From his response he came to the conclusion that you knew you were trading with a marked scammer hence "he most likely already knew about Earl and his history". Also knowingly trading with a marked scammer will be a instant ban regardless of the reason. Eg, the burning TC one of it's current owners was a well respected trader but just really really wanted a burning TC and only one available at the time was from a scammer and he bought it for a decent price. Still instantly banned regardless for knowingly trading with a scammer. If n0name came to that conclusion you would be no exception. You need to make sure exactly what the reason it was that he banned you before you start complaining everywhere about them overstepping boundaries. From your perspective they have stepped out side of their boundaries and banned you unjustly. However if they had additional proof and/or some reason which made them think that you knowingly traded with a marked scammed the ban would be justified in my books. I understand what your saying but they don't it was down, there's no way for me to prove it and if they had something they will say it. I just appealed on FoG and they replied with assumptions that I should have known. If there is something they should show it, to at least show the other communities that they aren't banning based on personal preference, this is the point of the post to show that they are banning for things SR doesn't indicate is a ban in their rules. The rules that all the communities should be following. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ninja Otter Posted June 8, 2015 Share Posted June 8, 2015 I can't read the FoG comments because them being very transparent and all decided to deleted all the comments so I cannot follow their logic. However from n0name's comment: We didn't delete the comments, all they say in private notes are the following: http://files.f-o-g.eu/b568feand the note before that is just me going "we should get SR's opinion on this before handling it" Also for trades of extreme value we are allowed to ban for first offences like this one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tio José das Vacas Posted June 8, 2015 Share Posted June 8, 2015 I've traded for 5 years, in that time paid for a Burning Team Captain for pure $$$ and most of my trades are high value. As per the SR rules I should not have a Ban. This was my 1st issue in 5 years and I have been constantly been trading high tier items. It was a mistake, I wasn't intending to profit as I had overpaid for the item, I didn't not get a good deal and wasn't looking to profit, it was a I'll like to own that beast kind of trade. If I had known then I wouldn't have traded, it makes no sense for me to have traded if I had known. Show me where in the SR rules that say I should have a ban, FoG is dictating their own rules and I am banned here based off FoG rules and not SR rules. This is the core issue. But all this is besides the point of the OP and is going off topic. I'm talking in here as a FoG Trade Moderator. We FoG and SR explained you several times that your banned because of the High value trade you did and since your a trader for 5 years you should known better. Even if SR has down your able to check him with other methods especially with it's a 3000 plus trade. Gona Quote this from SR FAQ: Ultimately, if it's very clear you were purposely trying to profit from scammed or stolen items, you deserve a BANNED tag at admin discretion. Even if you disagree with someone else's BANNED reputation tag, trading with them is still considered "Trading with a Scammer". Just because you trust them not to scam you, it doesn't mean they aren't selling stolen merchandise they took from someone else My sugestion to you- is stop and re-appeal when your able to. Any BP admin/mod that needs an explanation or wants to see more evidence and talk about it add me and message me on Steam. Also if you want (big mac ) read this : http://forums.steamrep.com/threads/ask-a-steamrep-staff-member.19358/page-36#post-283634 Anyone that does not agree or does not understand the ban please add me and I will do my best to explain. Note: Not gona check this thread, please don't reply to me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gren Posted June 8, 2015 Share Posted June 8, 2015 Couple of things: - SR was down, but was backpack and OP also down? The ban reasons (the SR mark) are clearly listed on both websites. Surely you checked his profile on bp, even if only to check the history of the hat? - While I agree that a first time offense should not translate into a mark, there's a big difference between e.g. an Aces High Conquistador and a Burning Flames all-class misc. These sorts of trades have and always will be way more scrutinized than low tier trades. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ninja Otter Posted June 8, 2015 Share Posted June 8, 2015 - While I agree that a first time offense should not translate into a mark, there's a big difference between e.g. an Aces High Conquistador and a Burning Flames all-class misc. These sorts of trades have and always will be way more scrutinized than low tier trades. While first time offences won't result in a full ban if you're trading under $300, when you're trading at well above that ($3000+) I think we can all agree that you're subject to more harsh punishments. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
polar Posted June 8, 2015 Share Posted June 8, 2015 - SR was down, but was backpack and OP also down? The ban reasons (the SR mark) are clearly listed on both websites. Surely you checked his profile on bp, even if only to check the history of the hat? And our guidelines for background checks clearly state that we expect traders to check both outpost and bp.tf on all trades >50 keys in value in addition to checking SR. @bigmac. My advice to you is to make a well thought-out appeal. You have been around forever and have been involved in the high tier trading game for a long long time. Yes, you should have known better and yes you should have checked bp.tf and outpost but if this is really your only trade ever with a marked scammer, as many high tier trades as you have done, I would be inclined to believe it was a one time mistake deserving of just a caution-tag. I would provide screenshots of your complete trade history and highlight all the high tier trades you have done showing that this was one mistake out of over 100+ similar trades. Present a well-thought out, contrite appeal, and that's your best bet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ninja Otter Posted June 8, 2015 Share Posted June 8, 2015 And our guidelines for background checks clearly state that we expect traders to check both outpost and bp.tf on all trades >50 keys in value in addition to checking SR. @bigmac. My advice to you is to make a well thought-out appeal. You have been around forever and have been involved in the high tier trading game for a long long time. Yes, you should have known better and yes you should have checked bp.tf and outpost but if this is really your only trade ever with a marked scammer, as many high tier trades as you have done, I would be inclined to believe it was a one time mistake deserving of just a caution-tag. I would provide screenshots of your complete trade history and highlight all the high tier trades you have done showing that this was one mistake out of over 100+ similar trades. Present a well-thought out, contrite appeal, and that's your best bet Our policy for all bans/cautions relating to trading with scammers is for the tag to be applied for 3 months before a downgrade is considered just FYI, he already made an appeal and we rejected it due to that, with him being able to reappeal in 3 months time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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