Gent♥ Posted May 6, 2015 Share Posted May 6, 2015 Sorry, it's too late. I am making one or few more suggestions and I am done with this site. The harm has been done. It's not too late, you're just being dramatic for literally no reason - and nobody's buying it, you just look like you're having a tantrum. I thought you were better than this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cares Posted May 6, 2015 Share Posted May 6, 2015 Puddington mostly looks at votes (so do some other mods...), and since most people know that in the past half a dozen months the focus has shifted more towards voting instead of proof, they will just upvote for easy rep. (domino effect) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
polar Posted May 6, 2015 Share Posted May 6, 2015 This is going to be a long post. You can choose to read it or not, but if you choose to complain without reading it then no mod is going to take your post seriously. Mods always do their own research before accepting suggestions. Just because SOME moderators choose to post rationales for accepting or rejecting suggestions does not mean that they are required to. Michael has always done his own research. Take the buds suggestion for example. The market is flooded with sellers at 4 keys. If a few sold for 5 keys a few days ago, does that mean that 5 should be in the range? One of the things that drives me crazy is that a lot of traders / suggesters seem to forget that we are after the MOST common trade points for items. Just because an item CAN sell for more or less than bp.tf values doesn't mean we should stretch our ranges to include every single trade point. We are after the MOST common trade points for items. On buds, that really seemed to be 4-4.5. If the votes are positive and if we feel that the suggestion is okay despite counterproof, we will accept them and are not obligated to provide a reason. Further, people are quick to dismiss trades as "quicksells" saying anything under 1 day is too young or a quicksell. When I moderate suggestions, I don't really put too much stock in how fast an item sold. I look at frequency. If an item sells 100 times for 1 ref and 2 times for 1.33 ref, range should be 1 flat even if every 1 ref trade happened in 10 min. I cannot stress enough that we are after common trade points. Another issue that has been annoying me lately is that people often completely ignore classifieds in their suggestions saying "classifieds is only supportive proof." Please use common sense. Nowadays, classifieds usually has more listings, especially for non-unusuals than any other site.... by a HUGE margin. Classifieds often reflects the common trade points on the market better than anything. The trading section of this site has grown dramatically in the last year. We have always asked people to exercise caution when using classifieds due to nuances like unbumped sales or backpacks that aren't getting refreshed in a timely manner. This does not mean that classifieds should be completely ignored. Consider a suggestion that includes two links for an item and suggests a range of 2-2.11 ref but classifieds shows 4 listings at 1.88 and 20 at 2 ref. I would argue that 2-2.11 is a bad range. I know that Michael puts a significant weight on classifieds and SCM, as he should, when he assesses suggestions. A few more points. (1) If it's a close call and the range could go either way, we ALWAYS go with the votes. (2) If you feel that information is missed by a moderator, you can always resuggest as you see fit. (3) Finally, we are now up to close to 10,000 suggestions each month. You have to realize that we will never require mods to comment on every suggestion, especially when the votes are positive and we accept them. It would simply not be feasible. People should not take that to mean that we are being lazy and not doing our due diligence. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gent♥ Posted May 6, 2015 Share Posted May 6, 2015 .Finally, we are now up to close to 10,000 suggestions each month. You have to realize that we will never require mods to comment on every suggestion, especially when the votes are positive and we accept them. It would simply not be feasible. *Cough* http://forums.backpack.tf/index.php?/topic/35814-the-suggestion-screening-team/c: But I can only echo Polar's reasoning (or not, as a non-mod, but ta heck with it) - the number of suggestions being accepted that have (perceived) issues is a very, very small percentage. I can honestly say I feel like the people making the biggest of deals over this (you know who you are) are being woefully unappreciative of just how much (voluntary) time and efforts the mods give to this site. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HarryG Posted May 6, 2015 Share Posted May 6, 2015 snip Ok, then explain to me the summer shade pillar suggestion. What 'research' was done there? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hexlicious Posted May 6, 2015 Share Posted May 6, 2015 "Another issue that has been annoying me lately is that people often completely ignore classifieds in their suggestions saying "classifieds is only supportive proof." I believe the reason people do not consider classifieds as their main proof, is cause people often list lower simply to cut in line and not be buried under other sellers, that is not the case with outpost, I feel if the classifieds had a similar system that showed the most recently bumped trade at the start of the classified listings, it would be much more reliable source for proof, instead of the lowest listing. Off course this would give premium / donator users a huge advantage on the classifieds, but even without premium I would have preferred a system like that way more than the current. Bit off-topic, so ill make a separate suggestion for it instead of continuing it here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
polar Posted May 6, 2015 Share Posted May 6, 2015 Ok, then explain to me the summer shade pillar suggestion. What 'research' was done there? I am not the moderator who accepted it. How can you expect me to know what research another mod did before accepting it? Again, the beauty of the site is that you can resuggest any time you want if you feel something is missed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
polar Posted May 6, 2015 Share Posted May 6, 2015 I believe the reason people do not consider classifieds as their main proof, is cause people often list lower simply to cut in line and not be buried under other sellers, that is not the case with outpost, I feel if the classifieds had a similar system that showed the most recently bumped trade at the start of the classified listings, it would be much more reliable source for proof, instead of the lowest listing. Off course this would give premium / donator users a huge advantage on the classifieds, but even without premium I would have preferred a system like that way more than the current. Bit off-topic, so ill make a separate suggestion for it instead of continuing it here. But the fact of the matter is that the seller is willing to sell for that lower trade point. That cannot be ignored. You cannot look at only one side of a trade. A trade is a two-party agreement. If there are multiple willing sellers at a slightly lower amount, that doesn't make it invalid. The fact that there are a lot more sellers in classifieds means more to me than the time it takes for them to sell or the fact that they are willing to undercut each other. That is normal market competition that is common in the real world too. You can't simply call them outliers or "quicksells" and throw them out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
♫ MoPcKo cBuH4e :d Posted May 6, 2015 Author Share Posted May 6, 2015 It would have been nice if Puddington posts a reason why he close an suggestion for example. Other mods always do it. However I hardly trade anymore and I don't even play TF2. More than a single person has asked me why I am still suggesting, why I am still here and my answer was "Because I love suggesting". That has changed as now I do it more as a hobby. However I decided to leave bp.tf for good. I have better things to do with my life (not saying suggesting is a bad thing). The main reason why I keep suggesting is because I gratuated and don't have a job right now but believe me that will change soon. But I guess you can't complain about me leaving. I gave my contribution to the site (1k+ accepted suggestions, $10 donated) so I have no regrets. I am happy that I found TF2 and bp.tf too. There are new suggestors that try to put good effort in their suggestions so people will probably forget about me after a month or two. However I think I won't forget you. Also I agree with Polar about the classified listings. I usually suggest something after looking at classifieds first as most of the time they reflect the market best. Well, that's all from me. You can lock this thread now as I got the answers I were looking for. And I apologize to Puddington if I was rude enough to blame him for not doing good work. Maybe I am the one that was wrong. That's it from me, peace. Fun fact: At the beginning I didn't knew what bp.tf is after. So I was a bit surprised when this - http://backpack.tf/vote/id/52bd7c404dd7b8f62c8b4568 got closed. It's funny because that was like my 50th suggestions. Then I realised bp.tf is after the most common prices. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
regi Posted May 7, 2015 Share Posted May 7, 2015 [...] we are after the MOST common trade points for items. Just because an item CAN sell for more or less than bp.tf values doesn't mean we should stretch our ranges to include every single trade point. We are after the MOST common trade points for items. On buds, that really seemed to be 4-4.5. If the votes are positive and if we feel that the suggestion is okay despite counterproof. [...] I still fail to comprehend how 5 keys was not a massive part of the economy. If you didn't already see it, go look at my response to Woifi about the controversy surrounding that suggestion. I proved by using the suggestion that got accepted's proof that 5 keys was still valid. I looked at every single 5 key unsold in that suggestion and A MINIMUM of half were sold. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gent♥ Posted May 7, 2015 Share Posted May 7, 2015 I still fail to comprehend how 5 keys was not a massive part of the economy. If you didn't already see it, go look at my response to Woifi about the controversy surrounding that suggestion. I proved by using the suggestion that got accepted's proof that 5 keys was still valid. I looked at every single 5 key unsold in that suggestion and A MINIMUM of half were sold. You've not listened. They sold, but they weren't the most common selling point, which is what we try to represent. Why should 5 be in the price when twice as many people are selling at 4.5? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
regi Posted May 7, 2015 Share Posted May 7, 2015 http://backpack.tf/vote/id/554ab9caba8d88c56e8b4586 Right, this is the final straw. The suggestion was accepted while I was editing my comment. Here's what I had to say: Any unsolds?I'm not voting on any currency suggestions until I see solid evidence.If this suggestion goes down the same road as your previous suggestion for earbuds, this'll be scattered with problems but still be accepted.I think I speak on the behalf of everyone when I say; We want undeniable evidence that contains 0 faults. If there is to be 1 fault then it should:a) not be accepted, b ) be shown to enable the given suggester to fix the faults with ease.c) the suggester should:-------a) close the suggestion------- b ) resuggestI'm going to give these links (not proof) to answer any questions on why I'm asking these questions.http://backpack.tf/vote/id/55483e60b88d88db5a8b4635[ACCEPTED]http://backpack.tf/vote/id/55446538ba8d8856468b4606[CLOSED]http://forums.backpack.tf/index.php?/topic/35764-should-puddington-be-a-mod/?p=391736[sHOWING THE ISSUES]http://forums.backpack.tf/index.php?/topic/35764-should-puddington-be-a-mod/page-2[REST OF CONVO.]http://forums.backpack.tf/index.php?/topic/35764-should-puddington-be-a-mod/?p=393146[ANOTHER COMMENT]Hopefully those links showed why I'm (along with others) a little agitated when voting on suggestions at the moment, not to mention currency suggestions.---------------------------------------------------------------------====--------------------------------------------------------------------After all that rambling, I shall now look over the proof you've provided.http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/25890669[Young]http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/25567854[Restocking bot]http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/13168732[Restocking bot]http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/25866470[sold]http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/24507542[Gifted, invalid]http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/22931582[Restocker]http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/25882598[sold almost all]http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/25883958[sold]http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/25890758[sold]http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/25889807[sold]http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/25822065[sold almost all]http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/25868618[sold some]http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/25889853[sold]http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/25803118[Not selling at 4 keys]http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/25857473[Not selling at 4 keys]http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/25881844[sold]http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/25882466[No set price]http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/25884385[sold some]http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/25843556[Not selling at 4 keys]http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/25873227[Closed, sold]http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/25884516[sold]http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/25882490[Gifted, invalid]http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/25873979[Not selling at 4 keys] EDIT: This'll be my last comment on the issue. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
boogeyman™ Posted May 7, 2015 Share Posted May 7, 2015 http://backpack.tf/vote/id/554ab9caba8d88c56e8b4586 Right, this is the final straw. The suggestion was accepted while I was editing my comment. Here's what I had to say: Is 20 odd sold for an item that is not a currency is not a large part of the economy? EDIT: This'll be my last comment on the issue. You again have missed the point here. The suggestion was accepted because majority was selling for 4 keys and buds were selling for 4 keys. That is the current trading price. If a sheer volume of sellers are willing to sell it for 4 buds and the buyers are happliy buying it for 4 keys too then that is the current price that community has accepted and it should be reflected by backpack.tf too. I appreciateyour time but a counter valid arguement would have consisted of equal number of 4,5 key sales. If your proof can counter the sales at 4.5 keys to the sellers at 4 keys then please by all means resuggest and the moderators will definitely look into it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
3v1lcl0n3 Posted May 7, 2015 Share Posted May 7, 2015 http://backpack.tf/vote/id/554b4446b98d88e8408b461f <.> maybe i'm plainly wrong with my comment but i'd like a reply at least,to know why i'm wrong Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roller Posted May 7, 2015 Share Posted May 7, 2015 I still fail to comprehend how 5 keys was not a massive part of the economy. If you didn't already see it, go look at my response to Woifi about the controversy surrounding that suggestion. I proved by using the suggestion that got accepted's proof that 5 keys was still valid. I looked at every single 5 key unsold in that suggestion and A MINIMUM of half were sold. The day that the Earbuds suggestion has accepted for 4.5-5 Keys, the market is flooded with 4-4.5 Keys and I think Puddington's judgement is acceptable. We are going after the common trading point here, and not strictly of the evidence found on currency suggestions. I suggested Earbuds to 4.5-5 Keys because at that time, Outpost doesn't have really a lot of sellers at 4.5 Keys or less, so I think a range is needed instead. It turns out the next day, a swarm of 4.5 Keys sellers came buy and the other suggestion got closed. Currency suggestions are all about timing, and not just evidence. Moderators will accept the price that suits the market the best. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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