New Rule Regarding Unusual Suggestions - "Two Sales Rule"

[AwesomeMcCoolName]

First let me say these rules are a welcomed change and on paper should give users a more accurate feel for prices esp with all the newer hats / effects being released.

 

But for a collector like myself, (example: http://backpack.tf/vote/id/521df7a94f96f4e01d8b4568#521df7a94f96f4e01d8b4567_row) I will now be on the receiving end of 1 of 1 items, most likely traded once and never to be traded again - I guess this wouldn't fall under the exception category - and honestly I don't care if it never gets a price - but would just like clarification.

 

Thank you.

Well, right now the rule only applies to new hats/new effects (and that should eventually change once these new hats/new effects have a place in the market). Also, since that hat won't be 1 of 1 for all that long, it will have a price eventually. 

[Woifi The Viking]

First let me say these rules are a welcomed change and on paper should give users a more accurate feel for prices esp with all the newer hats / effects being released.

 

But for a collector like myself, (example: http://backpack.tf/vote/id/521df7a94f96f4e01d8b4568#521df7a94f96f4e01d8b4567_row) I will now be on the receiving end of 1 of 1 items, most likely traded once and never to be traded again - I guess this wouldn't fall under the exception category - and honestly I don't care if it never gets a price - but would just like clarification.

 

Thank you.

Well I will repeat myself here then.

Since the effect is ghosts this certain unusual will be rare forever. Not sure if this is enough to be an exception. Personally I think it shoudl be not and the hat should remain unpriced.

[polar]

First let me say these rules are a welcomed change and on paper should give users a more accurate feel for prices esp with all the newer hats / effects being released.

 

But for a collector like myself, (example: http://backpack.tf/vote/id/521df7a94f96f4e01d8b4568#521df7a94f96f4e01d8b4567_row) I will now be on the receiving end of 1 of 1 items, most likely traded once and never to be traded again - I guess this wouldn't fall under the exception category - and honestly I don't care if it never gets a price - but would just like clarification.

 

Thank you.

 

I'll add to the comments above.

 

(1) Your hat won't be 1 of 1 forever

(2) The rule was meant specifically for new hats and effects. It doesn't, for example, apply to halloween hats/effects. The whole point is to let the prices settle. If you are willing to put yours on the market to field offers, I think 1-2 months from now would be enough time to consider the price "settled" and to field enough high end offers to justify a suggestion. This could be a case where we could make an exception. But right now, it's too early, imo.

[kHEAVY]

Thank you for the responses, I was mistaken in this case - I thought I had traded from the unboxer, but upon closer inspection it seems he got it from the unboxer - so I'll try to get what he traded it for along with proof.

 

But nevertheless, these rules are in place and I don't think this should be an exception the needs of the many (better pricing) out weigh the exceptions - 

 

TL;DR - I can wait - keep up the awesome work mods!

[F CHARLIE]

Has anyone suggested placing a thread for, first time, sales of un-priced, new, Unusuals so that it can tracked by several people?  Also, how do you guys feel about using Bazaar.tf Unusual auctions as proof?  I feel it is the most honest way to gauge the value of an Unusual.  All offers are plainly seen (no unproven ones from trade servers, private friend requests or from past posts).

 

Thoughts?

[+SPONGE+ NUTTER]

Just wanted to raise a point in relation to new items and the 'new rules'.  As so many new effects and hats are coming into TF2, Backpack.tf may have not yet made allowances for the fact that so many of these 1of1 or unique items will remain nil valued/value = 0 here.  Under the current valuation rules it prevents valuation/voting on an item that has not been sold rather than allowing votes based on a potential/likely value.

 

Because of this there will soon be the situation where most Unusual Hats on backpack.tf have no price or valuation at all. It seems obvious that unless the community is able to vote on item value based on it's potential value with respect to other items/hats/effects rather than a sale then Unusual traders will have little use for Backpack.tf which seems to suggest that the system is fundamentally flawed.  Using sale evidence strengthens the proof of course and works perfectly for re-evaluation but severely restricts new items from ever being valued.  Remember many if not most Unusuals are traded without their value being noted on backpack.tf.

 

Not only will valuations on Unusuals become irrelevant here as voting becomes outdated, inexperienced Unusual traders with unique or nil valued hats can't rely on backpack.tf as a guide as so many new Unusuals nave no value listed and experienced Unusual traders will use it even less as it will serve increasingly less purpose. The backpack valuations will also become even more inconsistent because so many items listed here will have a nil value. I predict that by Christmas 2013 there will be more Unusual hats on backpack.tf with a nil value than there are hats with prices, unless something changes.

If you're in any doubt here's just a few examples (there are plenty more):
http://backpack.tf/unusuals/30140/Virtual_Viewfinder
http://backpack.tf/unusuals/30043/Virus_Doctor
http://backpack.tf/unusuals/575/Infernal_Impaler
http://backpack.tf/unusuals/30106/Tartan_Spartan
http://backpack.tf/unusuals/30054/Bunsen_Brave
http://backpack.tf/unusuals/30014/Tyrantium_Helmet

 

etc, etc, etc...

 

Instead on backpack.tf being a source of item valuation it will soon become the source of 'no valuation'.

 

Just a thought

[♠Derpeh♤]

Just wanted to raise a point in relation to new items and the 'new rules'.  As so many new effects and hats are coming into TF2, Backpack.tf may have not yet made allowances for the fact that so many of these 1of1 or unique items will remain nil valued/value = 0 here.  Under the current valuation rules it prevents valuation/voting on an item that has not been sold rather than allowing votes based on a potential/likely value.

 

Because of this there will soon be the situation where most Unusual Hats on backpack.tf have no price or valuation at all. It seems obvious that unless the community is able to vote on item value based on it's potential value with respect to other items/hats/effects rather than a sale then Unusual traders will have little use for Backpack.tf which seems to suggest that the system is fundamentally flawed.  Using sale evidence strengthens the proof of course and works perfectly for re-evaluation but severely restricts new items from ever being valued.  Remember many if not most Unusuals are traded without their value being noted on backpack.tf.

 

Not only will valuations on Unusuals become irrelevant here as voting becomes outdated, inexperienced Unusual traders with unique or nil valued hats can't rely on backpack.tf as a guide as so many new Unusuals nave no value listed and experienced Unusual traders will use it even less as it will serve increasingly less purpose. The backpack valuations will also become even more inconsistent because so many items listed here will have a nil value. I predict that by Christmas 2013 there will be more Unusual hats on backpack.tf with a nil value than there are hats with prices, unless something changes.

 

If you're in any doubt here's just a few examples (there are plenty more):

http://backpack.tf/unusuals/30140/Virtual_Viewfinder

http://backpack.tf/unusuals/30043/Virus_Doctor

http://backpack.tf/unusuals/575/Infernal_Impaler

http://backpack.tf/unusuals/30106/Tartan_Spartan

http://backpack.tf/unusuals/30054/Bunsen_Brave

http://backpack.tf/unusuals/30014/Tyrantium_Helmet

 

etc, etc, etc...

 

Instead on backpack.tf being a source of item valuation it will soon become the source of 'no valuation'.

 

Just a thought

Many of those are 1/1 and no sales have been recorded. 

 

Also being based off one sale opens that single sale to alot of variables which in essense isnt a reflection of the unusual's price at all which is why 2 sales should be used always.

 

Eg, pricing a unusual off a single sale when it's new so it starts off with a highly inflated price and other users thinking it's that high price either 1:1 or trades under that assumption. Making ie a pain for others to correct it's price and owners of the hat get pissed. Eg the phos cowl it was priced when it was just new and was around 8 buds. It's barely 6 now and the current owner is trying to QS for 4.5 buds

 

Bp is here to try reflect the most accurate values we can, basing it off a single sample size goes against this.

[+SPONGE+ NUTTER]

I am talking about 1of1s and other new or rare hats which are becoming more and more frequent as new hats and effects are released.  This is exactly the point

 

More and more hats will have a nil value because valuations on Unusuals cannot be made unless they have been 'sold'.  That is surely the whole purpose of having a 'price voting system' to avoid nil valuation?  By allowing the community to vote surely provides a means to provide a guide price based on majority opinion/vote?  If voting remains to be restricted only to Unusuals that have been sold then there will soon be more Unusual's listed on BP.tf with no value than there are with values, which defeats the point of having a 'price'list in the first place.  We all know that fake trades happen here to fix prices and boost valuations so allowing open votes on Unusuals might just help stop that crap.

 

Whats the point of a PRICE list that has no listed prices?

 

the links above are an indication of what happening now and it will get worse (Halloween and Christmas aint that far away, more hats, more effects, more 1of1s and rare Unusuals = more and more hats with zero price/value).

[♠Derpeh♤]

I am talking about 1of1s and other new or rare hats which are becoming more and more frequent as new hats and effects are released.  This is exactly the point

 

More and more hats will have a nil value because valuations on Unusuals cannot be made unless they have been 'sold'.  That is surely the whole purpose of having a 'price voting system' to avoid nil valuation?  By allowing the community to vote surely provides a means to provide a guide price based on majority opinion/vote?  If voting remains to be restricted only to Unusuals that have been sold then there will soon be more Unusual's listed on BP.tf with no value than there are with values, which defeats the point of having a 'price'list in the first place.  We all know that fake trades happen here to fix prices and boost valuations so allowing open votes on Unusuals might just help stop that crap.

 

Whats the point of a PRICE list that has no listed prices?

 

the links above are an indication of what happening now and it will get worse (Halloween and Christmas aint that far away, more hats, more effects, more 1of1s and rare Unusuals = more and more hats with zero price/value).

But there is no point in us listing the price of an unusuals if it's wrong, especially when others trade with other unusuals which carries on the error :l

 

It's better to leave it nil and let the market run it's course and then bp will price it eventually anyways (which is how unsuuals get priced anyways). Again no point pricing things if it's going to be wrong.

 

Voting does help but the majority of the suggestion comes from the proof presented we can't simply make up a price on them, just be paitent and it will be priced.

[+SPONGE+ NUTTER]

But there is no point in us listing the price of an unusuals if it's wrong, especially when others trade with other unusuals which carries on the error :l

 

It's better to leave it nil and let the market run it's course and then bp will price it eventually anyways (which is how unsuuals get priced anyways). Again no point pricing things if it's going to be wrong.

 

Voting does help but the majority of the suggestion comes from the proof presented we can't simply make up a price on them, just be paitent and it will be priced.

 

So no price is better than a price that is inaccurate, really?  Unusual prices listed here are not considered to be particularly accurate at the best of times to many possibly due to the lack of trades being registered here.  If valuations are only possible on the outcome or 'proof' of a trade this idea appears doomed to failure and that is already becoming apparent with the vast number on un-priced and outdated valuations increasing exponentially.

 

Prices listed here are only a price GUIDE anyway and appear accurate only at time of a recent sale.  This is the flaw within the whole pricing scheme.  Surely that's the point of being able to VOTE for valuations?  If a price is set too high vote down value, if set to low vote up.  So many hats listed with 'no set price' could already be easily valued or at least some approximation given based on their relationship to other items without any evidence of a sale.  The voting system will work but only if it's implemented wisely.

 

No vote = no value.

Very soon most of the Unusual prices will look like these:

http://backpack.tf/u...tual_Viewfinder

http://backpack.tf/u...43/Virus_Doctor

http://backpack.tf/u...nfernal_Impaler

http://backpack.tf/u.../Tartan_Spartan

http://backpack.tf/u...54/Bunsen_Brave

http://backpack.tf/u...yrantium_Helmet

 

When this price-list contains more hats without a value than those with, it will be no more useful than the list of hats and particle effects it's farmed from.

 

If BP.tf wants to improve their reputation within the Unusual trading community it's issues like this they may want to address. Believe it or not I'm trying to help here and I would expect that if the Unusual pricing was handled a little differently more would appreciate it and use it.  If for instance a pricing panel was formed from a group of elected/trusted Unusual traders they could set entry prices on new items to then allow the community a starting point to work from, instead of the current nothing to nothing. Entry prices could be labelled as such until a community vote sets a static price.  or whatever....

 

[♠Derpeh♤]

So no price is better than a price that is inaccurate?  You could argue that that is the case already

Prices listed here are a price GUIDE and when has a guide that provides no information been any use for anything?

Surely that's the point of being able to VOTE for valuations?

No vote = no value.  Great idea whatever could be wrong with that.

 

If BP.tf wants to improve their reputation within the Unusual trading community it's issues like this they may want to address. Believe it or not I'm trying to help here and I would expect that if the Unusual pricing was handled a little differently more would appreciate it.

 

 

Because no price allows the market to settle down at a price and then bp will reflect that, putting a incorrect price leads traders to buy it thinking that the price is right when it is in fact grossly inflated.

 

A guide which sticks to providing the correct values is better than a guide which misdirects everyone. You could make it up to voting but then it can easily be manipulated. 

 

It's always better to leave it unpriced and eventually it will be sold/traded and reported on bp. Us putting  a incorrect price if anything defers from the point of having a guide. What good is a guide it if helps others scam and rip people off? 

 

A great example is our automated bonus for vinatges and low crafts. It tells others that all special level vinatges are worth a X amount more than the normal leading many many other traders to trade away their unusuals for a bunch of useless vintages. Bloody fix it already brad

 

http://forums.backpack.tf/index.php?/topic/2496-odd-leveled-vintage-low-craft-items-math-pricing/

 

Now if there was no price for the special level vinatges which is clearly the wrong price then others most like wouldnt have sold their stuff and get ripped off and they would stick to accepting offers which they them selves are familiar with.

[polar]

So no price is better than a price that is inaccurate?  You could argue that that is the case already

If BP.tf wants to improve their reputation within the Unusual trading community it's issues like this they may want to address. Believe it or not I'm trying to help here and I would expect that if the Unusual pricing was handled a little differently more would appreciate it.

 

 

No price IS better than an inaccurate price.

 

Again, the whole purpose of this rule was that first sales were often sharks / hype trades that severely messed up unusual values. This is independent of unusual inaccuracies due to currency changes and a much bigger discrepancy between unusual value and its listed price.

 

And people keep referring to bp.tf's negative reputation among unusual traders. That is simply overblown. Most unusual traders dislike bp.tf because a pricing guide makes it harder for them to make large amounts of profits since prices are set. But if you actually look on outpost, most unusual traders still go by bp.tf prices and the majority of b/o's are actually set based on bp.tf prices.

[F CHARLIE]

No price IS better than an inaccurate price.

 

Again, the whole purpose of this rule was that first sales were often sharks / hype trades that severely messed up unusual values. This is independent of unusual inaccuracies due to currency changes and a much bigger discrepancy between unusual value and its listed price.

 

And people keep referring to bp.tf's negative reputation among unusual traders. That is simply overblown. Most unusual traders dislike bp.tf because a pricing guide makes it harder for them to make large amounts of profits since prices are set. But if you actually look on outpost, most unusual traders still go by bp.tf prices and the majority of b/o's are actually set based on bp.tf prices.

 

 

It is very hard to convince sellers that their Terror Watt Brain Bucket is not 3 buds and is instead closer to 1.2 buds like the plasmas.  Try making that quickbuy offer of 15 - 17 keys and see how it goes.

 

Edit: Until its priced and cant find good offers I rank the effect to the others and use that price.  Ace, Memory Leak etc. are similar to other orbiting effects in price at the end of it all.

[+SPONGE+ NUTTER]

No price IS better than an inaccurate price.

 

Again, the whole purpose of this rule was that first sales were often sharks / hype trades that severely messed up unusual values. This is independent of unusual inaccuracies due to currency changes and a much bigger discrepancy between unusual value and its listed price.

 

If "No price IS better than an inaccurate price" and most Unusuals have no price against them, the list ceases to be a 'price' list.

 

The proof is in front of your eyes.

 

Unless something changes this is what you'll expect to see more of on BP.tf's Unusual price list:

http://backpack.tf/u...tual_Viewfinder

http://backpack.tf/u...43/Virus_Doctor

http://backpack.tf/u...nfernal_Impaler

http://backpack.tf/u.../Tartan_Spartan

http://backpack.tf/u...54/Bunsen_Brave

http://backpack.tf/u...yrantium_Helmet

 

None of these hats have a price for any effect at all:

http://backpack.tf/unusuals/30118/Whirly_Warrior

http://backpack.tf/unusuals/30135/Wet_Works

http://backpack.tf/unusuals/30119/Federal_Casemaker

http://backpack.tf/unusuals/30109/Das_Naggenvatcher

http://backpack.tf/unusuals/30105/Black_Watch

http://backpack.tf/unusuals/30097/Das_Ubersternmann

http://backpack.tf/unusuals/30095/Das_Hazmattenhatten

http://backpack.tf/unusuals/30127/Das_Gutenkutteharen

http://backpack.tf/unusuals/30082/Glasgow_Great_Helm

 

A price list with no prices is simply a list and serves no more purpose than Stats.tf.

 

Not quite sure why so few ain't getting it.  Most Unusuals listed here will soon have 'no price set' against them and very many more already have outdated values and we're talking many months not a week or two.  It can't keep up with valuations on old hats and effects, let alone new ones.  Some suggest sitting and 'waiting' until a sale is made before a value can be suggested but we can see already that this is failing massively.  It looks like 70% at very least of new effects have nil value already and with Halloween only a few weeks away and then Christmas not long after MOST hats listed here will have a NIL VALUE.

 

If members can vote to set a base price on new items or elect a panel of experienced traders to suggest one it might just pull the system out of the hole it's falling down.  If something doesn't change soon there will be too much of a backlog to deal with.

 

And where will traders go for Unusual hat valuations? Not here. That much is blindingly obvious.  Waiting for sales to be recorded to allow Unusuals to be valued simply isn't working because it can't keep up.  The longer BP.tf waits the worse it will get and soon it won't matter.

 

This is a good site with a decent community but has the potential to be great IF it can react to change.

[MC22]

setting a price with one sale is dumb because more often than not heavy anomaly be it a shark or superhype

what opposing side?

[AwesomeMcCoolName]

Listing inaccurate prices just creates further inaccuracies because of the way prices are set; and there are already plenty of inaccuracies caused by outdated prices and currency shifts. 

[Aditya]

Quick Question

Can people update prices based on sales of duped hats?

Also Can they use Quicksell Buyouts as Proof?

 

Because a hat that i own, Flaming Lantern Sergeants Drill Hat got updated based on proof of 3 sales of duped hats and 1 of a Quicksell 3.66 bud b/o

[♠Derpeh♤]

Quick Question

Can people update prices based on sales of duped hats?

Also Can they use Quicksell Buyouts as Proof?

 

Because a hat that i own, Flaming Lantern Sergeants Drill Hat got updated based on proof of 3 sales of duped hats and 1 of a Quicksell 3.66 bud b/o

Normally dupes on lower tier hats doest change the price that much but it's a totally different story once you start approaching into the 10+ bud range

 

And no you cannot set the price via a quick sell trade unless there are multiple people selling at that price or they have been "quick selling" for a long time which isnt exactly a quick sale.

 

If there is an error you can resuggest a new price.

[polar]

Quick Question

Can people update prices based on sales of duped hats?

Also Can they use Quicksell Buyouts as Proof?

 

Because a hat that i own, Flaming Lantern Sergeants Drill Hat got updated based on proof of 3 sales of duped hats and 1 of a Quicksell 3.66 bud b/o

 

It was accepted because a clean one was unsold for a month at the high end of the suggested range and he had been selling for a week already at the low end. Clean hat matched the price on the duped hat. If you have further issues with this, feel free to make a suggestion question thread here: http://forums.backpack.tf/index.php?/topic/75-guidelines-for-suggestion-question-threads/

[F CHARLIE]

I have been watching this suggestion:

http://backpack.tf/vote/id/526871d14cd7b81f498b4568

In the suggestion there is proof of sales for up to 2.5~ and possible 5 buds.  The rule regarding two sales is meant to combat hype pricing but we can see that this hat can not even go for 1.5 buds right now.  While, yes, it is a bad time to try to sell an unusual, 1.5 buds should not be hard to do.  How should this be handled?

[polar]

I have been watching this suggestion:

http://backpack.tf/vote/id/526871d14cd7b81f498b4568

In the suggestion there is proof of sales for up to 2.5~ and possible 5 buds.  The rule regarding two sales is meant to combat hype pricing but we can see that this hat can not even go for 1.5 buds right now.  While, yes, it is a bad time to try to sell an unusual, 1.5 buds should not be hard to do.  How should this be handled?

 

He's got major other issues with his suggestion, most importantly no proof for 1.2. But independent of that, it's a tricky hat to price. Again, as stated in the rules, if the sales are discrepant, more sales are needed to determine the appropriate range. So I'm seeing sales of 1.9, 2.5, 2.5, 5, and a b/o of 1.5? The current suggestion has no basis, but if someone were to resuggest with a different range, a mod will have to look for more sales than just those provided because there are a few more sales out there to use as data points.

[ERASER BY]

He's got major other issues with his suggestion, most importantly no proof for 1.2. But independent of that, it's a tricky hat to price. Again, as stated in the rules, if the sales are discrepant, more sales are needed to determine the appropriate range. So I'm seeing sales of 1.9, 2.5, 2.5, 5, and a b/o of 1.5? The current suggestion has no basis, but if someone were to resuggest with a different range, a mod will have to look for more sales than just those provided because there are a few more sales out there to use as data points.

Yea I agree with you -need proof for Lower End (B/O -I think outlier). Good example :  http://backpack.tf/vote/id/526187b14cd7b817468b4568  -Mr.Bucket virtually right , though non standard situation here . 

[F CHARLIE]

He's got major other issues with his suggestion, most importantly no proof for 1.2. But independent of that, it's a tricky hat to price. Again, as stated in the rules, if the sales are discrepant, more sales are needed to determine the appropriate range. So I'm seeing sales of 1.9, 2.5, 2.5, 5, and a b/o of 1.5? The current suggestion has no basis, but if someone were to resuggest with a different range, a mod will have to look for more sales than just those provided because there are a few more sales out there to use as data points.

 

 

1.9, 2.5, 2.5, 5  is incredibly invalid tho and if 1.5 is not going than that has to be the current high point.  It seems this simple hat may not be able to be priced.  I think his reasoning for 1.2 is that the seller has said they may go lower if offered.  The 1.2 should not be part of his range based on that but what if the range was established by current offers on the hat and the b/o of 1.5?

[polar]

1.9, 2.5, 2.5, 5  is incredibly invalid tho and if 1.5 is not going than that has to be the current high point.  It seems this simple hat may not be able to be priced.  I think his reasoning for 1.2 is that the seller has said they may go lower if offered.  The 1.2 should not be part of his range based on that but what if the range was established by current offers on the hat and the b/o of 1.5?

 

Why are those sales invalid? Sales are sales. At least the sale at 1.9 happened in the last month. How you advertise, bump your trade has a lot to do with what you can get for your hat as well. The seller for 1.5 is definitely doing a terrible job of that. And simply calling sales outliers is a subjective evaluation that we try to stay away from as much as possible. We try to use sales and a rational approach to identifying outliers rather than using a single poorly advertised trade to define the entire market.

[Woifi The Viking]

Cleaing up this forum part1.

 

Linked this thread to the unusual suggestion guide. Unpinning this to reduce the number of pinned threads (11).

 

The rule still applies of couse.