The Non Community Run Community

[Milz187]

I've been watching the community slowly surrender itself to the a certain elite group for a very long time, the market is still strong but the ownership no longer belongs to the people but a select few. It's no longer a case of how you act and what you do but a case of who you know.

I won't go into details here but something has recently tipped me off the edge regarding TF2, you can be the most honest and legit trader and mean no harm but a slip up could get the hawks out gunning for your head.

(I'm sure some know what's ticked me off)

Rather than type words I'll attempt to put some context behind them.

To be involved in the market you mostly need to have good standing with 3 communities.

 

CRITICAL: SteamRep - SteamRep is a community which has the primary objective of keeping the market safe from scammers, if you are not in good standing with this community are a listed scammer you will be banned from nearly every other community group.

 

TF2Outpost: This is the trading website of choice for TF2 traders, If you don't have access to this you are missing out on access to many traders

Backpack.tf: I'm sure most of you know, this website is a price checking website for many people, you place pricing suggestions here and then users get to vote them up or down, this website for the most part controls the pricing of most items since many people use it as a bible.

So as you can see the above 3 are fairly critical to a smooth TF2 community market, though lets go through some fundamental flaws.

SteamRep has great intentions but have recently taking up to much work load and dropped the ball, for them to be successful in their function they need to be quick in putting the hammer down on scammers, the simple fact here is they are completely backlogged and they have open cases since 2013. This simply makes their primary function obsolete, how safe is the community if scammers are left unattended for over a year. I can only see this timeframe increasing then decreasing.

Other communities have realized the backlog and in keeping their community safe they are banning people with pending reports.. "they are forced to take the guilty before innocent approach" This opens another can of worms, don't like someone? Fill out a report which will be pending for a year and limit that users access to the market for a long time/

Another issue is that rules are not black and white... there is a lot of greyness, things can ruled different from admin to admin, how they feel on any given day, and what they think your standing in the community is. I've seen and can post reports where a user has not paid someone a promised payment for 6 months, in the report the admin in charge has highlighted that the user has received previous warnings but based on their standing in the community they were let off without even a caution tag. Other users (me) who have traded since day dot make an honest mistake in trading with a marked user due to the fact steamrep wasn't loading thus not being able confirm rep status. Instead of looking over the good history of the said user and understand how it could have been an honest mistake, they go to imply that they were lying and that there's 0% chance that steamrep could not have no loaded. (You can never commit to 100% up time, especially for users overseas) This is where greyness falls into place, the admin can choose to believe or not believe the case and mark then on their own thoughts.

TF2Outpost: On the most part it's pretty good minus their ban approach... they simply ban who ever they like yet keep traders like Wayne active, I pretty much warned a trader to be careful in dealing with Wayne (attempting to protect them from a shitty deal which he is known to give) but I received a 1 day ban for the effort. I've now got an unjust lifetime ban there for an honest mistake I've made, and in the appeal I've welcomed them to a live feed where I will show them my trade history, well see how that goes. (UPDATE: I had a chat the Helen and she corrected my perm ban and changing it to 2 weeks, she said I should never have been perm banned for that as it's not their policy but 2 weeks is.)

Backpack.TF: (Getting ready for a ban) This website is the furthest thing from a community run website, though it's fooled many of you into thinking it is. When they first started up I was added by one of the admins trying to get me active mostly for the unusual side of things... I told them you can't price an unusual and you shouldn't attempt to put stability in something that's not stable, the market for it is a simply buyer / seller market. I removed them off my FL but then got a message on sourceop telling me more about it and how it's going to be 100 percent decided on the community.... they were wrong.

Putting a price on it is simply going to push the seller to settle for less than what they want or it could work the other way around forcing the selling to pay the price of an unusual when it sold for its hype price.

The way to price an unusual there has many flaws, I owned an item that had no price on backpack.tf, recently sold for cash + Earbuds + 2 unusuals, 1 was priced and 1 wasn't... shouldn't be to hard to put in a suggestion right?

So I go to backpack.tf and attempt to price my hat but I get the message which was something like "You do not have enough value in your backpack to put in a suggestion so high, you are short 66 buds of being able to price this valued item"

1st issue, for me to put in a price I need to buy 66 buds... How is someones thoughts or experiences with a 500 bud BP more valued than someone with a 20 bud bp, it just means the 500 bud BP dude has a better job or richer parents.

2nd issue, I put a post on the forums asking someone who is rich enough to put through a pricing suggestion for me and then I go on to type out the suggestion, in which I was greeted to things like INB4 D0 Ninjas your ass, lets wait for D0....ect. at the time I'm think who the f is D0 and why does he have such power and control over this community, It was as if the people of the TF2 community had all turned to sheep. Anyways D0 comes along, gives his feedback, I didn't agree with it but it was apparent that I needed to pass through D0 before my suggestion could even been looked at. We went back and forth and D0 was asking for mini suggesions on prices that had prices already listed on backpack.tf.

There was a burning BonkBoy in the deal, from memory the price was 30 buds according to backpack.tf but for me to list it at that I needed to find a recent sale at that price, I found 1 but in that trade there was another unusual with a listed price that D0 wanted me to do another mini suggestion, this was all becoming a joke and a stupid cycle so I stopped wasting time on it, no one rich enough put in the suggestion in for me... highlighting the flaws in its fundamentalist nature.

Correct me if If wrong but Backpack.tf has a ranking based on accurate feedback, so what I've seen happen is that people started voting one way - Do makes his suggestions then the voting goes the other way. Now it seems some people have caught on and just wait for D0 to make his vote. They pretty much just vote to be ranked... do other people see this or am i wrong?

Chatting with D0 he highlighted the following, once again correct me if i'm wrong... say my suggestion had reached the suggestion phases and the community had given it a 88% upvote and agreed with my suggestion you would think it would pass and validated... guess what I heard? It still needs to be approved by a certain admin.

 

EDIT: I thought i'll here that backpack.tf looks to be consistent with the ban rulings unlike the others.

To put in a very simple summery, the community is monitored, marketed and valued but a handful of people.... you should all stop being sheep.

[♠Derpeh♤]

Chatting with D0 he highlighted the following, once again correct me if i'm wrong... say my suggestion had reached the suggestion phases and the community had given it a 88% upvote and agreed with my suggestion you would think it would pass and validated... guess what I heard? It still needs to be approved by a certain admin.

✖         Upvotes =/= Accepted price

Upvotes doesn't necessarily mean it is the correct price. Some votes will occur based upon what prices traders want and not the proof presented. The mods on bp.tf have the final say after looking at the proof given, along with comments and counterproof in the suggestion.

An example: If you open a suggestion with no proof lowering keys, upvotes will still occur since users want keys to be cheaper.

http://forums.backpack.tf/index.php?/topic/3203-guide-making-good-suggestions/

 

Whilst I can agree on some points i have to point out some simple flaws with some of your ideas, backpack.tf has no power to control the economy, proof needs to be pre-existing for a suggestion to be made i.e. backpack.tf reflects the economy. I will add in that constant increases in price can lead to users blindly buying up items for no reason creating demand and driving prices up *cough*bmoc*cough*

 

Many users here delicate a lot of their time helping users out, giving advice both on suggestions and trading. Many users here have traded up from a few hats to have bps worth multiple buds and after a while many users here become popular in the tf2 trading world as well as recognise each other both on the forum/suggestions they dont hold any power other than inside jokes to each other...etc

 

The point which you added which highlights your annoyance with pricing, it can be taken as both a positive and negative, suggestions can be annoying to get accepted which is true however this shows how committed backpack.tf members are to try pricing items for users, giving up our own free time to help the community. Annoying for the suggester, good for the community, though i can agree on you that many times i would make a suggestion and end up not suggesting due to a lack of proof.

[Slocumruls]

trading with earl de darkwood is the kiss of death and you should have known that. 

[Milz187]

trading with earl de darkwood is the kiss of death and you should have known that. 

 

Why should I have known that? I don't follow his trading or most other traders history. Have you personally messaged every active steam account and informed them not to trade with him?

[Milz187]

 

✖         Upvotes =/= Accepted price

Upvotes doesn't necessarily mean it is the correct price. Some votes will occur based upon what prices traders want and not the proof presented. The mods on bp.tf have the final say after looking at the proof given, along with comments and counterproof in the suggestion.

An example: If you open a suggestion with no proof lowering keys, upvotes will still occur since users want keys to be cheaper.

http://forums.backpack.tf/index.php?/topic/3203-guide-making-good-suggestions/

 

Whilst I can agree on some points i have to point out some simple flaws with some of your ideas, backpack.tf has no power to control the economy, proof needs to be pre-existing for a suggestion to be made i.e. backpack.tf reflects the economy. I will add in that constant increases in price can lead to users blindly buying up items for no reason creating demand and driving prices up *cough*bmoc*cough*

 

Many users here delicate a lot of their time helping users out, giving advice both on suggestions and trading. Many users here have traded up from a few hats to have bps worth multiple buds and after a while many users here become popular in the tf2 trading world as well as recognise each other both on the forum/suggestions they dont hold any power other than inside jokes to each other...etc

 

The point which you added which highlights your annoyance with pricing, it can be taken as both a positive and negative, suggestions can be annoying to get accepted which is true however this shows how committed backpack.tf members are to try pricing items for users, giving up our own free time to help the community. Annoying for the suggester, good for the community, though i can agree on you that many times i would make a suggestion and end up not suggesting due to a lack of proof.

 

 

You have just highlighted my point that it's not community run, there is always going to be varied views on prices but when you take the control away from the masses and leave the decision in the hands of 1 person it outlines their view as more important than the rest.

[Pie Creepin Round Here]

While your complaints about steamrep may have some merit, you're complaints about the backpack.tf pricing system are quite off base. In general, it is a fairly well set up system for what it is (if you think unusuals shouldn't be priced on principle that's your opinion and you're entitled to it, but in my opinion having a nearly universal, if not accurate pricing spreadsheet for unusuals does far more good than harm in helping less knowledgeable traders value their hats). The process of getting a suggestion accepted is actually pretty damn easy, as long as you know the site rules and are willing to cooperate with the community members. The site admins themselves can actually be quite helpful with tricky suggestions or answering questions, and it shouldn't take more than a couple hours at the absolute most to price an unusual, assuming it fits within the parameters of a price-able hat. As far as suggestions not being accepted based on community voting goes, that is a absolutely huge benefit to the system. Most people who vote on backpack don't check the sales for accuracy (or often even the suggestion at all), and just upvote or downvote based on the suggester, or what they think the value of the hat should be. I can't even count how many suggestions I've seen get 90%+ approval rates and have blatantly wrong "sales" that nobody bothered to check. Also, you get suggestions like this which receive over a hunted upvotes.

 

http://backpack.tf/vote/id/52f074794cd7b85d518b4568

[Slocumruls]

Why should I have known that? I don't follow his trading or most other traders history. Have you personally messaged every active steam account and informed them not to trade with him?

There's been at least a few high tier traders both banned off outpost and steam rep marked recently for trading with earl. Also, he's banned just about everywhere. The fact his backpack is friends only wasn't a big red flag?

 

http://steamrep.com/profiles/76561198072605490example

[LaughingLollipop]

but really.... you're about to do a 150ish bud trade and you're telling me you didn't bother to check the hat's history?

 

bp.tf has a nice little sr indicator up right below the value

outpost, well outpost his name was red

sr has a nice little popup that says "don't trade with me" and then a red name

 

u srsly think we can just look the other way?

 

 

 

so yeah, steamrep marked people are bad, sharkers are bad, bp.tf pricing is subject to opinion and blatant manipulation and uh that about sums it up.

[Milz187]

There's been at least a few high tier traders both banned off outpost and steam rep marked recently for trading with earl. Also, he's banned just about everywhere. The fact his backpack is friends only wasn't a big red flag?

 

http://steamrep.com/profiles/76561198072605490example

 

And did you tell me about these few high tier traders that were banned, did you tell me he was marked? I don't crawl forums or chat to users about who has or hasn't been banned. I simply chat to a couple people over steam trade and he was never a topic of discussion. Like i stated Steamrep didn't load for me while I was doing the check, one of my best steam buddies Vo0 has a private backpack most of the time. Does that mean I should not trade with him?

[Milz187]

but really.... you're about to do a 150ish bud trade and you're telling me you didn't bother to check the hat's history?

 

bp.tf has a nice little sr indicator up right below the value

outpost, well outpost his name was red

sr has a nice little popup that says "don't trade with me" and then a red name

 

u srsly think we can just look the other way?

 

 

 

so yeah, steamrep marked people are bad, sharkers are bad, bp.tf pricing is subject to opinion and blatant manipulation and uh that about sums it up.

 

My only requirement when doing a trade is checking steamrep, I'm not familiar enough and have never had a good experience with backpack.tf to warrant me to use them as an indicator on who to and not trade with.

 

I was banned on outpost a week or so ago for spamming, I can't say I thought about opening that to confirm a trade, but your right if I was to check I could have gotten a better indication but the simple fact is I didn't check. I've only ever checked Steamrep. I've offered a steamrep admin the chance to looking at my trade history via a live stream, I don't think there's any better way for me to prove that I'm an honest trader.

[♠Derpeh♤]

You have just highlighted my point that it's not community run, there is always going to be varied views on prices but when you take the control away from the masses and leave the decision in the hands of 1 person it outlines their view as more important than the rest.

It is community run suggestions are made by the community and mods review the suggestion to see if it isnt manipulation or bullshit, not to mention all mods used to be top suggesters as well. Without mods you suggestions would be chaos, with no proof just users blindly "i think it should be this because X" without proof.

 

Mods cannot make prices either, they cannot accept anything which does not have proper proof because users can see every suggestion made and passed. That's not to say that they sometimes dont make mistakes there have been times in the past where friends who trade with each other...etc have been used as "proof" and users quickly discover them and the price will be removed.

 

You essentially pointed out why we needed mods, there are always varied views hence why there needs to be proof, this community has many people, you have the whiners, the highballers, the lowballers, the veteran traders, the rookie traders, the scammers...etc Mods are there to filter out the bullshit and make sure that bullshit doesnt get accepted. The decision isnt only them, mods look at the votes, the proof and comments to make a final decision if they all match up then it will pass they cannot random accept just anything and if they reject a valid price then the community backlashes...etc

[LaughingLollipop]

It is community run suggestions are made by the community and mods review the suggestion to see if it isnt manipulation or bullshit, not to mention all mods used to be top suggesters as well. Without mods you suggestions would be chaos, with no proof just users blindly "i think it should be this because X" without proof.

 

Mods cannot make prices either, they cannot accept anything which does not have proper proof because users can see every suggestion made and passed. That's not to say that they sometimes dont make mistakes there have been times in the past where friends who trade with each other...etc have been used as "proof" and users quickly discover them and the price will be removed.

 

You essentially pointed out why we needed mods, there are always varied views hence why there needs to be proof, this community has many people, you have the whiners, the highballers, the lowballers, the veteran traders, the rookie traders, the scammers...etc Mods are there to filter out the bullshit and make sure that bullshit doesnt get accepted. The decision isnt only them, mods look at the votes, the proof and comments to make a final decision if they all match up then it will pass they cannot random accept just anything and if they reject a valid price then the community backlashes...etc

 

I dunno if you're just drinking the kool aid or what, but its pretty hard to not see some flaws in the way pricing is done....

 

There is always room for improvement.

[♠Derpeh♤]

I dunno if you're just drinking the kool aid or what, but its pretty hard to not see some flaws in the way pricing is done....

 

There is always room for improvement.

I was replying to his idea that we shouldnt have mods highlighting how that would be a very stupid idea, not saying that we price things perfectly, backpack has plenty of flaws just 30 mins ago I supported the website suggestion that we need to remove prices for certain items http://forums.backpack.tf/index.php?/topic/28362-really-bad-prices/?p=314256

[Milz187]

It is community run suggestions are made by the community and mods review the suggestion to see if it isnt manipulation or bullshit, not to mention all mods used to be top suggesters as well. Without mods you suggestions would be chaos, with no proof just users blindly "i think it should be this because X" without proof.

 

Mods cannot make prices either, they cannot accept anything which does not have proper proof because users can see every suggestion made and passed. That's not to say that they sometimes dont make mistakes there have been times in the past where friends who trade with each other...etc have been used as "proof" and users quickly discover them and the price will be removed.

 

You essentially pointed out why we needed mods, there are always varied views hence why there needs to be proof, this community has many people, you have the whiners, the highballers, the lowballers, the veteran traders, the rookie traders, the scammers...etc Mods are there to filter out the bullshit and make sure that bullshit doesnt get accepted. The decision isnt only them, mods look at the votes, the proof and comments to make a final decision if they all match up then it will pass they cannot random accept just anything and if they reject a valid price then the community backlashes...etc

 

I understand what your saying in that people can use it to attempt to manipulate a price, lets say there's members of the community with bad intentions, in reality the masses should flood it and call them out on their bullshit. When it's left to 1 person (D0 was telling me that Polor I think it was has the final say) say this 1 person has bad intentions (I'm not saying they do, I don't know them) but when it's left to 1 person or a elite group of people then correcting their bad intentions is made almost impossible.

[Milz187]

I was replying to his idea that we shouldnt have mods highlighting how that would be a very stupid idea, not saying that we price things perfectly, backpack has plenty of flaws just 30 mins ago I supported the website suggestion that we need to remove prices for certain items http://forums.backpack.tf/index.php?/topic/28362-really-bad-prices/?p=314256

 

Don't you think a revote will work better, say something was voted at 88 pecent, and the admin / mods thought it was incorrect and that the masses missed something. Don't you think it will work better if they then put it up for re suggestion and highlight why they denied it. The final say in a community run site should end with the community.

[Scott Bakula]

So I go to backpack.tf and attempt to price my hat but I get the message which was something like "You do not have enough value in your backpack to put in a suggestion so high, you are short 66 buds of being able to price this valued item"

 

1st issue, for me to put in a price I need to buy 66 buds... How is someones thoughts or experiences with a 500 bud BP more valued than someone with a 20 bud bp, it just means the 500 bud BP dude has a better job or richer parents.

 

 

That wall is there to prevent people from being involved in something they have little or no experience in. If a person only has a $2 backpack, they've likely never been involved in high tier unusual trading, and as such, would tend to be a poorly informed voter. However, there are ways around it, namely being a contributing member of society. If a person makes accurate votes or good suggestions, they will get contribution points. The higher your points, the more voting/suggesting power you have (and the value multiplied is based on the highest recorded value, so one doesn't have to worry about cashing out). It's all about learning to walk before you can run.

[♠Derpeh♤]

I understand what your saying in that people can use it to attempt to manipulate a price, lets say there's members of the community with bad intentions, in reality the masses should flood it and call them out on their bullshit. When it's left to 1 person (D0 was telling me that Polor I think it was has the final say) say this 1 person has bad intentions (I'm not saying they do, I don't know them) but when it's left to 1 person or a elite group of people then correcting their bad intentions is made almost impossible.

 

That is very idealistic the reality is that as a community we dont work towards a common goal, everyone is greedy in their own right and hence their decisions will be based off what will give them the most return, there are many times in the past where it has shown that to rely on the community 100% will be a very very bad idea. At night when mods are asleep and horrible suggestions stay on the front page for an hour or 2 try to book mark them and see the votes, many times as long as there is a wall of proof users tend to upvote, if there is no proof users will downvote (some upvoting), I can spam a wall of bullshit proof right now close it in 10 mins and you will probably see 50%+ upvotes. Whilst the voting system can be reliable at times it isnt reliable at all eg for currency where users will vote based off what they want and not the proof shown.

 

Don't you think a revote will work better, say something was voted at 88 pecent, and the admin / mods thought it was incorrect and that the masses missed something. Don't you think it will work better if they then put it up for re suggestion and highlight why they denied it.

A re-vote would not very beneficial and has been suggested in the past where the suggester can change the suggested price if he/she has suggested wrong or made a mistake however the votes which have already been inputted already are based off the proof and price they saw at the time.

 

Normally what happens if there is a mistake the mod will comment on the suggestion highlighting what is wrong and or if there needs to be more proof allowing the suggester to close the suggestion and re-suggest OR to add on some additional points as to why it should be accepted, you dont lose rep points, improve your suggestion and allow others to re-assess your suggestion. Rarely ever have I seen a mod straight out close the suggestion unless it is totally wrong, outdated or trolling

[Scott Bakula]

if there is no proof users will downvote (some upvoting),

 

 

Here's a great recent example: http://backpack.tf/vote/id/54bb6c7fba8d889b768b56e4

 

Guy made a price suggestion thinking he was making a trade listing and still got 20% upvotes.

[UnEpic_]

Hold on hold on hold on. 

 

Yes we know about the 3 MAIN groups, but what about all the OTHER GROUPS.

Like these website's that im going to list-

 

Bazaar.tf - Another secondary trading site, It's a nice and loyal community... me included. Though they do string up with bp and steam rep.

Scrap.tf - hoo boy. How can you miss this, It has a lot of power underneath its belt. Having the ability to buy and sell items at a rapid pace is a nice site to have.

trade.tf - this is how people make some suggestions on backpack.tf, they usually record other sellers/ buyers.

These are grey areas to me- Soo I don't know about these people.

tf2warehouse - this... I don't know. It was confusing for me. :/

Marketplace.tf - This exists? I'm not sure if people use this.

 

Now power... belongs to those who deserve it.

A lot of the community has power, that I can agree. But I think were focusing on D0 too much.

Why not...The other pricers... like Mr giang, Necro Ted, Hugh Jazz Mann, Red Paradox, Prof. Luckycube, or All the [Girl] people (granted... they do run the lotto), 

I actually lowered the craft hat pricing a while back... granted, I got yelled at on a few servers. http://backpack.tf/vote/id/545b1296b98d8880138b469f

The steam rep people are (mostly) legit good people. But they ARE UNDER STAFFED... from what I can tell. I guess I can say the same with all the other big timers.

 

I want to say more, but i'll stop for now. i may have even counteracted my own self. Letting this ride.

[Milz187]

 

That is very idealistic the reality is that as a community we dont work towards a common goal, everyone is greedy in their own right and hence their decisions will be based off what will give them the most return, there are many times in the past where it has shown that to rely on the community 100% will be a very very bad idea. At night when mods are asleep and horrible suggestions stay on the front page for an hour or 2 try to book mark them and see the votes, many times as long as there is a wall of proof users tend to upvote, if there is no proof users will downvote (some upvoting), I can spam a wall of bullshit proof right now close it in 10 mins and you will probably see 50%+ upvotes. Whilst the voting system can be reliable at times it isnt reliable at all eg for currency where users will vote based off what they want and not the proof shown.

 

A re-vote would not very beneficial and has been suggested in the past where the suggester can change the suggested price if he/she has suggested wrong or made a mistake however the votes which have already been inputted already are based off the proof and price they saw at the time.

 

Normally what happens if there is a mistake the mod will comment on the suggestion highlighting what is wrong and or if there needs to be more proof allowing the suggester to close the suggestion and re-suggest OR to add on some additional points as to why it should be accepted, you dont lose rep points, improve your suggestion and allow others to re-assess your suggestion. Rarely ever have I seen a mod straight out close the suggestion unless it is totally wrong, outdated or trolling

 

Thanks for the insight... I completely understand your views and they do make sense. My thinking is pretty simple, if it's community ruled (like a Wikipedia as an example) then things are going to get tampered with from time to time but in the end the masses will correct it. If it's ruled by an elite group (like the news) then it's open to propaganda, bias and alternative motive, that's my issue on that, I'm not saying that this is what's going on I'm just saying as in the title that the community is not run by the community. By community I don't mean backpack.tf but as a whole, there's are 3 predominant websites websites in the TF2 trading community and all the final decisions end up with either 1 group or 1 person being the ruling factor.

 

With backpack.tf pricing there's a lot of variables involving a value and each variable is subject to it's own ruling. These variables can either be looked passed or agreed on.

[Not_a_long_name_at_all]

Thing is, some mods shouldn't be mods, pretty sure some of em bought their way into the position.

[Milz187]

Hold on hold on hold on. 

 

Yes we know about the 3 MAIN groups, but what about all the OTHER GROUPS.

Like these website's that im going to list-

 

Bazaar.tf - Another secondary trading site, It's a nice and loyal community... me included. Though they do string up with bp and steam rep.

Scrap.tf - hoo boy. How can you miss this, It has a lot of power underneath its belt. Having the ability to buy and sell items at a rapid pace is a nice site to have.

trade.tf - this is how people make some suggestions on backpack.tf, they usually record other sellers/ buyers.

These are grey areas to me- Soo I don't know about these people.

tf2warehouse - this... I don't know. It was confusing for me. :/

Marketplace.tf - This exists? I'm not sure if people use this.

 

Now power... belongs to those who deserve it.

A lot of the community has power, that I can agree. But I think were focusing on D0 too much.

Why not...The other pricers... like Mr giang, Necro Ted, Hugh Jazz Mann, Red Paradox, Prof. Luckycube, or All the [Girl] people (granted... they do run the lotto), 

I actually lowered the craft hat pricing a while back... granted, I got yelled at on a few servers. http://backpack.tf/vote/id/545b1296b98d8880138b469f

The steam rep people are (mostly) legit good people. But they ARE UNDER STAFFED... from what I can tell. I guess I can say the same with all the other big timers.

 

I want to say more, but i'll stop for now. i may have even counteracted my own self. Letting this ride.

 

lol I don't see the point your trying to make.

 

I don't know enough about those other groups but to clear it up to be able to trade you ideally need two things, rep and a means to trade. Steamrep being the place people go to view rep. Outpost being the MAIN place people go to trade, I did say that by not having Outpost then your missing out on interactions with many traders... most traders use Outpost, I'm sure you'll agree if I said that most traders will use outpost, and if they used bazzar they would probably also have their item listed on outpost, the same can't be said vice versa, though you could easily do a couple search in both and find out. 

 

I didn't say steam rep were bad people, I said their intentions are good but they are over flooded.... which is very similar to saying they are understaffed.

 

You said "Now power... belongs to those who deserve it." Sorry but that's a pretty stupid thing to say.

 

Who deserves it?

Deserving power and gaining power are two different things.

 

Lets bring up a recent issue PPM.

 

Does Bob deserve power because he's rich?

Does D0 deserve power because he's friends with Bob?

Or do the people that built and visited that community deserve the power?

[♠Derpeh♤]

Thanks for the insight... I completely understand your views and they do make sense. My thinking is pretty simple, if it's community ruled (like a Wikipedia as an example) then things are going to get tampered with from time to time but in the end the masses will correct it. If it's ruled by an elite group (like the news) then it's open to propaganda, bias and alternative motive, that's my issue on that, I'm not saying that this is what's going on I'm just saying as in the title that the community is not run by the community. By community I don't mean backpack.tf but as a whole, there's are 3 predominant websites websites in the TF2 trading community and all the final decisions end up with either 1 group or 1 person being the ruling factor.

 

With backpack.tf pricing there's a lot of variables involving a value and each variable is subject to it's own ruling. These variables can either be looked passed or agreed on.

 

Taking on your example of Wikipedia in the past was completely community run and it was back then where it was widely not considered a legitimate source of information however it is different now as in the recent years everything which is written there is now monitored (by admins and senior volunteers) where trolls/bullshit and bias opinions are filtered out. It's a bit of a stretch to compare the news to backpack.tf because unlike the news everything on backpack.tf is transparent, users can see exactly what goes on, the proof, the price, the comments...etc they can see where prices come from which doesnt allow moderators to manipulate.

 

I will agree with the variable of subject to ruling tho, many times in the past where very rare unusuals were bought by collectors for clearly an insane price bob, neymar...etc I myself dont think they should be used to reflect the price of the item since no one else will every pay that much for them, however others prefer to use it as just a "report the most recent sales" since it is so rare and we dont know when the next one will be up for sale.

[Noot ♥]

Hold on hold on hold on.

 

Yes we know about the 3 MAIN groups, but what about all the OTHER GROUPS.

Like these website's that im going to list-

 

Bazaar.tf - Another secondary trading site, It's a nice and loyal community... me included. Though they do string up with bp and steam rep.

Scrap.tf - hoo boy. How can you miss this, It has a lot of power underneath its belt. Having the ability to buy and sell items at a rapid pace is a nice site to have.

trade.tf - this is how people make some suggestions on backpack.tf, they usually record other sellers/ buyers.

These are grey areas to me- Soo I don't know about these people.

tf2warehouse - this... I don't know. It was confusing for me. :/

Marketplace.tf - This exists? I'm not sure if people use this.

 

Now power... belongs to those who deserve it.

A lot of the community has power, that I can agree. But I think were focusing on D0 too much.

Why not...The other pricers... like Mr giang, Necro Ted, Hugh Jazz Mann, Red Paradox, Prof. Luckycube, or All the [Girl] people (granted... they do run the lotto),

I actually lowered the craft hat pricing a while back... granted, I got yelled at on a few servers. http://backpack.tf/vote/id/545b1296b98d8880138b469f

The steam rep people are (mostly) legit good people. But they ARE UNDER STAFFED... from what I can tell. I guess I can say the same with all the other big timers.

 

I want to say more, but i'll stop for now. i may have even counteracted my own self. Letting this ride.

You forgot about me. Am I really that small of a price suggestor?

[Milz187]

Thought I'll add this in... It's not very community like especially since it's one of the main currencies.

 

http://backpack.tf/vote/id/549dcc53b98d88b63c8b4c38

 

I heard the throwing backpack cooldown rules were thrown in the trash with this 1.