TheVenomWithin Posted January 12, 2015 Author Share Posted January 12, 2015 I never stated he was, I stated that with the current information he shouldn't be. Quite a few people here think he should. And as far as I know the facts neither have sharked, unless you use outposts rules which I disagree with Even going by outpost rules pudding like I said. My b/o on the hat was 50, and I paid 17 in items going by bp.tf pricing. That's not 10-20% of the items value. Not to mention he has 1.5k tf2 hours, and he had knowledge of not only bp.tf, but outpost as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
puddingkip Posted January 12, 2015 Share Posted January 12, 2015 Even going by outpost rules pudding like I said. My b/o on the hat was 50, and I paid 17 in items going by bp.tf pricing. That's not 10-20% of the items value. Not to mention he has 1.5k tf2 hours, and he had knowledge of not only bp.tf, but outpost as well. Yeah I read the facts, but this was more of a general statement rather than one based on you. This thread wasn't specifically about you but "sharkers" in general right? With you as obvious example Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheVenomWithin Posted January 12, 2015 Author Share Posted January 12, 2015 Yeah I read the facts, but this was more of a general statement rather than one based on you. This thread wasn't specifically about you but "sharkers" in general right? With you as obvious example aye my bad, It's moreso of a mix between opinions on me and opinions on sharking. but yeah, you are right. sorry about that Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cave Posted January 12, 2015 Share Posted January 12, 2015 Sharking isn't a offense really. It's just people who find the trade "Fishy" and go investigate it, many innocent people could have been banned from this, I agree 100% with you. Sharking should be removed from banable reasons. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spiritwalker Posted January 12, 2015 Share Posted January 12, 2015 Please stop spamming threads with your nonsense. the irony kek Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cave Posted January 13, 2015 Share Posted January 13, 2015 the irony kek top kek Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark Unread Posted January 13, 2015 Share Posted January 13, 2015 Sharking isn't a offense really. It's just people who find the trade "Fishy" and go investigate it, many innocent people could have been banned from this, I agree 100% with you. Sharking should be removed from banable reasons. I perfectly agree with you and venom in this one. Is just nonsense... If you can do very good deal in real life, why should this be illegal in TF2 trading? Isn't sharking, no one loses anything. The traders both know what they are trading for. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shmevin Posted January 14, 2015 Share Posted January 14, 2015 Sharking is defined as manipulating another user into trading/selling a valuable item for 10% or less of its accepted value (or 20% or less for users with less than 200 hours in that game) or any other deceptive trading practice that the staff consider to be against the spirit of this rule. We participate in a network of trading sites that do not tolerate taking advantage of other users for personal gain. TF2Outpost's no sharking rule is a soft rule. Everything about this rule is opinion based and is open to interpretation, which allows staff to place bans on users if the trade in questions meets their idea of sharking, but not the 10/20% or less value specification. Most of the time "sharking" cases are not as simple as paying a couple weapons or craftable hats for an unusual hat. TheVenomWithin's case is a perfect example. He paid 10-15 buds ($250-400) in a mixed offer for an unusual without a price, and less than ten other existing effects at the time. He himself didn't know what he could get for it, so he just put a buyout of 50 buds pure or 75 in unusuals. Is that buyout now declared the hat's accepted value? Definitely not. Even if it was, that doesn't even come close to the 10x value difference defined by the Outpost sharking rule. Unless he lied about item value, or told the other user he was offering something different, I see no reason for the ban. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheVenomWithin Posted January 14, 2015 Author Share Posted January 14, 2015 TF2Outpost's no sharking rule is a soft rule. Everything about this rule is opinion based and is open to interpretation, which allows staff to place bans on users if the trade in questions meets their idea of sharking, but not the 10/20% or less value specification. Most of the time "sharking" cases are not as simple as paying a couple weapons or craftable hats for an unusual hat. TheVenomWithin's case is a perfect example. He paid 10-15 buds ($250-400) in a mixed offer for an unusual without a price, and less than ten other existing effects at the time. He himself didn't know what he could get for it, so he just put a buyout of 50 buds pure or 75 in unusuals. Is that buyout now declared the hat's accepted value? Definitely not. Even if it was, that doesn't even come close to the 10x value difference defined by the Outpost sharking rule. Unless he lied about item value, or told the other user he was offering something different, I see no reason for the ban. here's the screen if you want to see it for yourself http://forums.steamrep.com/attachments/venom-4-jpg.182643/. Also, I'm not sure were you guys are getting 10 buds from. Going by backpack prices, it adds up to 17 (obviously some of these are outdated and inaccurate). The rest of your statement is true. And I appreciate your input on it. The actual payment is here: http://forums.steamrep.com/attachments/trade-history-jpg.182642/ I'd love to talk to toughsox to discuss the matter when he is available. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gren Posted January 14, 2015 Share Posted January 14, 2015 If there's manipulation involved (e.g. lying about prices, pressuring to trade, distorting facts, etc.), then it's ethically questionable. But even then, I'm not sure if it should ever be a ban worthy offense. The whole 3rd party policing that TF2 has going on is questionable in itself anyway. The reasoning is always "Yea but irl this is illegal too". The problem is that this isn't real life. In real life we have laws to protect us because people can harm us without our consent. E.g. someone can just run up to you and kill you with a gun and there's nothing you could have done to protect yourself. In TF2 however, nobody can harm you without you fucking up. You have to click a link, accept a trade or trade your hat to a trusted friend - there always needs to be some action on your part that actually enables the "crime". Thus, in TF2 every member has the power to protect themselves from everything that could possibly happen to them without the need of a legal system or a police. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
☾Link✞Skorpion☽ Posted January 15, 2015 Share Posted January 15, 2015 The whole 3rd party policing that TF2 has going on is questionable in itself anyway. The reasoning is always "Yea but irl this is illegal too". The problem is that this isn't real life. In real life we have laws to protect us because people can harm us without our consent. E.g. someone can just run up to you and kill you with a gun and there's nothing you could have done to protect yourself. In TF2 however, nobody can harm you without you fucking up. You have to click a link, accept a trade or trade your hat to a trusted friend - there always needs to be some action on your part that actually enables the "crime". Thus, in TF2 every member has the power to protect themselves from everything that could possibly happen to them without the need of a legal system or a police. I really wish Third-Party would stop babying new or ignorant users. I follow the golden rule in life. Learn from your mistakes! Clearly they made a mistake by allowing themselves to be sharked. They made a mistake by following the phishing link. They made the mistake of taking I.O.U.s on paypal or otherwise. They gave up their information. Now they can either complain, learn from and not do it again, or both. Did the Shark do wrong by taking advantage of another person's ignorance/kindness? Ethically, yes. But otherwise, they did what it took to get a good deal, but because newbies got butthurt over it or experienced traders are getting butthurt and making it their business, rules are now in place and it's frowned upon. I need to stop ranting. I'm bad at this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheVenomWithin Posted January 15, 2015 Author Share Posted January 15, 2015 -snip I need to stop ranting. I'm bad at this. Naw, That was actually a clear explanation. Believe it or not, I got sharked quite a few times as a starter trader. It's something that happens to everyone. It's just how you deal with it and move on from there is what matters. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heated Bread Posted January 15, 2015 Share Posted January 15, 2015 As a newbie, I was sharked twice. Both times were very minor in terms of the value I lost. I was scammed twice as an experienced trader. I was lucky there because the loss I took was also very minor in one case and in the other case I was able to turn it to my advantage and make a bigger profit out of the items I ended up with as a result. Before I knew how to check for duped unusuals, i bought one by mistake. i ended up taking about an 8 key loss on that, which I was able to recover fairly easily later on when I got back into unusual trading. Why am I relating this? In the 4 instances where I was either sharked or scammed, even though my losses were very minor, I felt way worse than in the one instance that I mistakenly bought a duped unusual for which I lost many times more in profit. It doesn't matter what your losses are; when somebody deliberately takes advantage of you like that, it feels awful. So try to have a little empathy for others the next time you're thinking of sharking someone. Stick to the golden rule. Don't do something to somebody that you wouldn't want them to do to you. That said, there's nothing wrong with making profitable trades, just as long as the person you're trading with is able to make an informed decision. If they don't know they're getting a shitty deal, then you're the badguy. If they do know and they still want to do the trade anyway, then you're golden. It's their call to make. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Space Jesus Posted January 15, 2015 Share Posted January 15, 2015 Not a fan of sharking, assuming we're talking about the implied negative connotation usually applied where it goes further than "Hey I got a really good deal". In some cases, it's only marginally better for the victim than getting scammed or phished, since the person might toss you a bone with his offer and give you *something* for your item instead of nothing. Part of the argument is "Well that guy got what he wanted, and I got what I wanted". For some of the more blatant cases, if you're ~40+ buds off in value for what you offer, why not add buds or Paypal to make things more fair? Poor guy only wants 8 in items or hats, be nice and give him that 8 + 25-30 in pure for a ~55 bud hat. Cases like that, there's no defense for the sharker, where they are in a spot to clearly "bridge the gap" but blatantly do not even attempt to do so. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shmevin Posted January 15, 2015 Share Posted January 15, 2015 Why am I relating this? In the 4 instances where I was either sharked or scammed, even though my losses were very minor, I felt way worse than in the one instance that I mistakenly bought a duped unusual for which I lost many times more in profit. It doesn't matter what your losses are; when somebody deliberately takes advantage of you like that, it feels awful. So try to have a little empathy for others the next time you're thinking of sharking someone. Stick to the golden rule. Don't do something to somebody that you wouldn't want them to do to you.You were taken advantage of five times. FIVE TIMES. If you were as experienced as you said you were, you would be able to make smart enough choices to not get fucked over three additional times after you were "sharked." Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me. Fool me five times, maybe I should get a new hobby. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heated Bread Posted January 15, 2015 Share Posted January 15, 2015 You were taken advantage of five times. FIVE TIMES. If you were as experienced as you said you were, you would be able to make smart enough choices to not get fucked over three additional times after you were "sharked." Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me. Fool me five times, maybe I should get a new hobby. I've done 9,439 trades. 5 out of 9,439 is pretty god damn good. And all of those 5 were within my first year when I was still learning. 2 were before I even got into trading. And they were all before backpack.tf ever existed, which is what all you lazy traders treat like a bible, take for granted, and still manage to constantly shit all over. Back then if you wanted to make sure of the value of something, you had to really do your homework on it. And I'm not talking about running around on outpost either because that didn't exist yet. There was just tf2tp and not everyone knew about it. The old spreadsheet still existed, but it was often outdated and wrong and the owner set certain inaccurate prices for his own benefit, which was known to some of the veteran traders even before the scandal hit. Back then, pricecheck wasn't a server plugin. You actually had to say "pricecheck on _______" @ the whole server and hope to get an honest response from somebody with experience with that item rather than some asshole who would either lie or quote the spreadsheet. God dammit, in my day keys were between 2 and 2.33 refined, and when I went to the mann co. store, I had to walk in the snow with no jacket... uphill... both ways. So before you get all uppity and judgmental, take that into consideration. kthx. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shmevin Posted January 16, 2015 Share Posted January 16, 2015 I've done 9,439 trades. 5 out of 9,439 is pretty god damn good. And all of those 5 were within my first year when I was still learning. 2 were before I even got into trading. And they were all before backpack.tf ever existed, which is what all you lazy traders treat like a bible, take for granted, and still manage to constantly shit all over. Back then if you wanted to make sure of the value of something, you had to really do your homework on it. And I'm not talking about running around on outpost either because that didn't exist yet. There was just tf2tp and not everyone knew about it. The old spreadsheet still existed, but it was often outdated and wrong and the owner set certain inaccurate prices for his own benefit, which was known to some of the veteran traders even before the scandal hit. Back then, pricecheck wasn't a server plugin. You actually had to say "pricecheck on _______" @ the whole server and hope to get an honest response from somebody with experience with that item rather than some asshole who would either lie or quote the spreadsheet. God dammit, in my day keys were between 2 and 2.33 refined, and when I went to the mann co. store, I had to walk in the snow with no jacket... uphill... both ways. So before you get all uppity and judgmental, take that into consideration. kthx. I can't tell if you're bragging about how long and how much you have been trading, or justifying your poor judgement because it took a teeny-weeny bit more work to research item value. Either way, this discussion is about sharking, and it seems to me that even after three to four years you are unable to move on. You are also a hypocrite because you judge those who choose to shark, yet ask me not to judge you for your choices. And yes, I can take that into consideration because I, like you, have been trading long before the creation of TF2OP or backpack.tf. As someone with that experience, I can say without a doubt it was not a struggle at all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heated Bread Posted January 16, 2015 Share Posted January 16, 2015 I can't tell if you're bragging about how long and how much you have been trading, or justifying your poor judgement because it took a teeny-weeny bit more work to research item value. Either way, this discussion is about sharking, and it seems to me that even after three to four years you are unable to move on. You are also a hypocrite because you judge those who choose to shark, yet ask me not to judge you for your choices. And yes, I can take that into consideration because I, like you, have been trading long before the creation of TF2OP or backpack.tf. As someone with that experience, I can say without a doubt it was not a struggle at all. Okay I see what this is about. You're pro-sharking. You could see how I wouldn't have gotten that right away since you didn't actually address what I said about sharking (was it maybe too hard for you?). You skipped it and decided to try and shame me for being a victim. I get it now. You're right. This discussion is supposed to be about sharking. We should get back to that. So, this is a common response in my experience from people who shark: it's the victim's fault. The victim should know better. I'm not accountable for what I did because the victim is supposed to know these things. While an individual does have a certain responsibility to know the value of their own items and to research the value of items they are trading for, a new player cannot be expected to have a full grasp of how to do this yet, and in fact it is unreasonable to expect them to. That's precisely the kind of ideal target that a shark is looking for. Sharking is the practice of seeking out inexperienced and unknowledgeable traders and deliberately exploiting their lack of knowledge for your own personal gain. The newer and more inexperienced the player, the better it is for the shark, because it's more likely to work. That covers the new guys. Well what about someone who's been trading for a while but still isn't as experienced as they should be, and gets sharked? Is it their fault then? Partially, yes, assuming they are mentally competent enough to have the capability to avoid such things (and we all have our momentary lapses of reason as well). Does that exonerate the shark? Hell fucking no. By definition, you knew exactly what you were doing while they did not. It doesn't give you a free pass. You're still guilty. You're still a selfish greedy asshole who just violated the golden rule: never do something to someone else that you wouldn't want done to you. You know full well you would never have taken that trade if the situation were reversed. Trying to say that it is the victim's fault does not then legitimize sharking. Even if it is granted that the victim was in fact at fault, it does not then also mean that you as the shark are not still guilty of wrongdoing. It is not always a situation of one party being entirely to blame. In pushing all of the blame onto the victim, you are in effect saying that you are not responsible for your own conscious choices. You were just forced to shark the person because you're somehow not a free thinking human being when it comes to trading. There was just no possible way that you could have chosen not to shark the person, because that's just how things are, and so therefore all of the responsibility for what happened is on them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
emilights.com Posted January 16, 2015 Share Posted January 16, 2015 Shark : 1. Sharp. 2. (Kid's) definition of traders who profit 10% - 30% any single trade. Those trading for loss are called friends (see: friend) Trade : 1. To exchange one or more items. 2. (Kid's) definition of any action to exchange one or more items, until one party decides to trade the item/s back. The party who will not exchange the item/s back will be called cheater (see: Scam / Scammer ) Scam : 1. Done with lies. 2. (Kid's) definition of traders who profit more than 30% any single trade. Friend : 1. (Kid's) definition of people who give you free items to stay on your friend list. You will cease to exist without them, so after receiving some refs/ items ... you need to give them your stupid animated hat that doesn't help you at all against your in game enemies. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NICK THE THIRD Posted January 18, 2015 Share Posted January 18, 2015 I myself have sharked a few times. Got a rust botkiller medigun for about 2 ref, sold it for a key. I have nothing against it really. It IS their fault. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Senpai Absol~ Posted January 18, 2015 Share Posted January 18, 2015 I myself have sharked a few times. Got a rust botkiller medigun for about 2 ref, sold it for a key. I have nothing against it really. It IS their fault. Not a shark. a good deal :^) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NICK THE THIRD Posted January 18, 2015 Share Posted January 18, 2015 I then used the key to unbox. :3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Senpai Absol~ Posted January 18, 2015 Share Posted January 18, 2015 -Snip- While I mostly Agree with what you said Bread. With the part Of people who have been trading for a while and get sharked, Do you mean when the Person Lies about the prices, or someone asking for a certain amount gets that? Because if going like that If you check My good deal thread. You might as well file a report on everyone of them (Includeing a mod) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heated Bread Posted January 18, 2015 Share Posted January 18, 2015 While I mostly Agree with what you said Bread. With the part Of people who have been trading for a while and get sharked, Do you mean when the Person Lies about the prices, or someone asking for a certain amount gets that? Because if going like that If you check My good deal thread. You might as well file a report on everyone of them (Includeing a mod) As I think I've already said, I'm not classifying it as sharking simply when somebody gets a good deal. The primary distinction that I'm making is whether someone is able to make an informed decision. It's assumed that since people found their way to the bakpack.tf forums, they at least have some understanding of the value of the items being traded, and the burden of proof that a sharking took place would be very hard to meet reasonably in those cases. And lowballing is not sharking. To use an easy example, if I say to you "I'm offering you 1 refined for your hat which I know for a fact you could get at least a key for", I'm definitely lowballing, but I'm also definitely not sharking. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheVenomWithin Posted January 18, 2015 Author Share Posted January 18, 2015 Essentially it can't be considered a lowball if the person doesn't know what the items are worth to begin with. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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