Should I try to appeal the bans?

[AwesomeMcCoolName]

Maybe so. Just because someone said "I wouldn't trust ____" doesn't really mean a whole lot. Should it raise a red flag? Yes. But that's all.

If you get a red flag on a 10+ bud item and don't double and triple check it, then you deserve whatever comes to you. 

[Avenging Flame]

The fact of the matter is cranwell checked the seller, knew that the seller was marked on steamrep but didn't care. Everything else is irrelevant because he knowingly traded with a marked user ad we all know thats wrong. So no, Cranwell should remain banned. I have nothing against him, I always found him enjoyable enough to see on the forums and I had considered buying a few of his hats in the past, but the fact of the matter is he did something wrong and is receiving the punishment for it

[The G What ™]

Anybody who came to this thread not expecting all unimaginable hellfire was clearly deluded. Hopefully I may just calm things a notch.

 

Why do rules exist? By extension, why do laws exist?

 

Both rules and laws exist to encourage desirable behavior and, in turn, to punish undesirable behavior.

Here, a ban is punishing undesirable behavior - that is, knowingly trading with a marked scammer (the SCM middle-manning is irrelevant, in this case.)

 

To be found guilty of a non-statutory regulated crime, two factors must be present (Not just a pretty face over here, eh?)

Actus Reus - The 'Guilty Act.' This is clearly present - this is no denying you did indeed trade with a scammer.

Mens Rea - The 'Guilty Mind.' Again, not contestable - You were aware the seller was marked, and proceeded to do so anyway.

 

Thus, anybody who is suggesting you not be punished at all, is allowing personal factors to cloud their judgement. It is not debatable that a punishment is required.

 

Then, mitigating and aggravating factors must be considered.

On the one side, you do good work for the community - nobody here is not acknowledging this.

However, this is your second offence - and previous 'convictions', so to speak, do not count in your favour.

 

So we arrive at a middle-ground, somewhat. Based on what has been presented, I can only consider your unbanning unlikely at best.

Unless new evidence is brought to light (which it may well be, if Draco's link is deemed worthy of further investigation), there is little here to quibble over.

 

A purely objective view. I'll be sad to see you go, Cranwell, but there's very little that can be done. I feel I may be speaking for a lot of people when I say that.

 

I move to lock this thread. Nothing constructive is being achieved.

Oh, you took a Law 1 course, good for you. Cool story, but this thread won't make you mod.

 

To everyone who finds the ban ridiculous, I want you to read this again: http://i.imgur.com/e8ul7F6.jpg. In what world is that okay? There is no way you can possibly spin that to be excusable. 

 

The argument that we shouldn't put our hands into SCM's business is moot. He linked an OUTPOST link that showed the user was banned on BP.TF FORUMS. He saw that the user was banned. He was warned that the user was banned and not to trade with him yet he did it anyways. This is as open and shut of a case as there comes. 

 

I'm not saying we will ban everyone for every single trade with a scammer from SCM on bp.tf if they did it unknowingly. Lots of listings that get made come from alts and it would be an impossible task to try to tease all those apart. But in this case, none of that is even in question. He bought directly from a marked scammer and he knew it. It is ridiculous to me that anyone finds this ban unjust. 

 

Also, people seem to be incredibly misinformed. Sometimes we hand 2-4 warnings for people for UNKNOWINGLY trading with scammers depending on the situation. But KNOWINGLY trading with scammers has always resulted in an instant permanent ban, no exceptions.

 

Yes, this ban is idiotic. The link was to an item on bp.tf that showed the user was marked. Did he break rules? Yes, but based on inconsistent information of an outdated site. Again, I still point the finger at Steamrep, which still holds far too much sway in this community.

People would still care after 2-3 years? You know, after that person might have changed and matured? Well alright, I guess I should be like everyone else and walk around like my farts don't stink.

 

Apparently that doesn't matter. Fuck up once and you are fucked forever.

In my eyes, trading through SCM is no different than regular trading. It'd be one thing if the system hid the identity of the sellers, but since it doesn't, there's no excuse not to check in a high level trade, and certainly no excuse in going through with a trade with knowledge of the seller being involved in scamming in the past. The only reason people don't want to check is fear of someone else taking it in the meantime, and if the deal's that good that it's a concern, that's exactly when you need to be checking.

Did you check this bombing run in your bp? Or any of your unusuals? 

 

The problem is almost the whole S.C.M users does not do that(do background checks). If people are going to get banned for that, might as well ban almost all S.C.M users, which is almost the whole Steam Community. I can say for sure almost every S.C.M user have bought and sold items from scammers/hijackers, of course not intentionally, they quickly trade in fear of someone snatching the deal before someone else does. It can't be stopped. Especially when people lurks around S.C.M and uses trade.tf live deals.

 

This is how it is going to work and sites like Outpost and Bazaar have to deal with it, if they want to keep their site up that is. If they find out that the user traded intentionally and fully was aware then they can do the ban just like they did with Cranwell because he was fully aware of the person he was trading with.

 

Edit : Forgot to add... It is well clearly explained here by Polar, if you knew who you were trading with and was fully aware and over all that you were warned beforehand, you deserve the ban. Simple as that. http://forums.backpack.tf/index.php?/topic/18341-should-i-be-unbanned/page-3&do=findComment&comment=204046

I still propose that this community do a better job of policing itself and stop relying on outdated information. 

[AwesomeMcCoolName]

Yes, this ban is idiotic. The link was to an item on bp.tf that showed the user was marked. Did he break rules? Yes, but based on inconsistent information of an outdated site. Again, I still point the finger at Steamrep, which still holds far too much sway in this community.

 

Apparently that doesn't matter. Fuck up once and you are fucked forever.

Did you check this bombing run in your bp? Or any of your unusuals? 

 

I still propose that this community do a better job of policing itself and stop relying on outdated information. 

"inconsistent information" He knew he was sketchy, he knew the previous owner was marked, and he knows what happens when you trade with scammers. Now, lets factor in that he also has already received a ban for the very same thing. Now, had he noticed the previous owner was marked, and then researched it and seen that the tag was for mic spaming (UGC!) and then proceeded with the trade that would be one thing. But he didn't he just said "fuck it", and took the risk. And because of that, hes now banned.  

 

Vincent got the bombing Run on Feburary 21st. The previous owner (the one vincent purchased it from) didn't get marked on SR and banned on outpost until over a week later--during which time there were 0 reports. 

[Distinctively Vincent]

Did you check this bombing run in your bp? Or any of your unusuals? 

 

 

I do in fact check all unusual traders before trading with them. Beyond what Awesome pointed out, please look a little bit more thoroughly before pointing fingers, that history is hardly a complete one- the trader who was later marked wasn't even the one I had traded with.

 

http://www.tf2outpost.com/item/440,1479583714,249,5

 

Admittedly my unusual trades from two+ years back may not have been given as thorough as checks as I try to do now (there was a time where I had a good deal of faith in steamrep and I haven't exactly marked on my calendar when I learned they were no longer reasonably active), but I can say for a fact that I have always given a look at steamrep with the person I was trading with bare minimum and have turned down numerous unusual trades due to a mark/report on steamrep, a ban from outpost for scamming/fencing, or an account that looked fishy as an unusual trader. No, I'm not perfect. There's a couple of unusual trades I've done with users that I had thought looked perfectly fine from my checks but were revealed months later to be scammers/fences. Perhaps there were details I had overlooked that would have allowed me to avoid making the trade. But I do indeed check each and every user that I make an unusual trade to do my best to avoid trading with scammers/fences and I don't see how it's at all an unreasonable expectation.

 

Feel free to dig through as many of my unusuals or as much of my history as you want. I've always done the best I can to trade with integrity, I have nothing to hide and will happily answer to any questions you have.

[♠Derpeh♤]

Your contributions to the community are completely irrelevant in regards to your ban.

 

I appreciate the time you have given to the community but that doesn't justify knowingly trading with a marked scammer.

 

If anything you of all people should know the consequences of trading with marked scammers let alone knowingly trading with a scammer...

[BlueSpider]

Maybe it's a good thing Cranwell. TF2 Is a dying game anyways. With CS:GO and Dota 2 still growing it leaves almost no love for TF2. It's only a matter of time before they just stop updating it all together. Like someone else said I would just move to the CS:GO market. This imo is just like what happened with Hirez with Tribes Ascend. Tribes won game of the year and was kinda starting to get competitive. Hirez shut it all down because of the rise of MOBA's so they Made Smite and have yet gone back and Updated Tribes in like 1-2 years. CS:GO and Dota are getting updates Constantly whether it's new in-game cosmetics, New heroes, New gun skins, New Operations to give players a Diversity Tf2 is just here with no major changes except an odd big Update like Love and War and maybe end of the line coming up. A lot of Traders and players are moving to the CS:GO market because it has proved to be more profitable and just better all around. You can also get better in game drops that nearly pay for the game with 1 month of owning it. My advice to you is switch to like CS:GO where it is less strict and free game (on the  market). With it's population growing the market can only get stronger and stronger until it even outmatches TF2 completely. Or you could just keep your Unusuals as you are extremely rich and Could just have fun playing the game instead of just trading all the time. I still don't believe you should get Perma Banned for trading with scammers (etc). Dealing with trading with scammers you should only get temporary bans unless it is to a high degree (which this was not imo). Bans should range from 1 day to 1 year depending on what you did. 1 year Bans should be significant enough because it would give you time to think about what you did and you literally can't trade for 1 year which is long enough for someone to never do it again. Thats all I have to say. RIP Cranwell :3

 

Edit: Idc if a lot of people say i'm wrong I can take criticism. With other games growing at the rate they are (Dota 2, League, CS:GO, and other games) it's just a matter of time before people stop playing TF2 altogether and bans like this on people who keep the market going are not in their favor. 

[=NickFury=]

I'm honestly amazed how all of you aren't supporting cranwell in this. Up until now, the SCM was fair game, without any ifs or buts. Aren't we the guys who have to work with the rules our trading sites put forth anymore? I really don't get how so many of you think what matters here is a judgement of the situation. No, this really shouldn't be about opinions, but about maintaining a working ruleset for us traders. From profiteers to collectors, we come in all shapes and sizes, and it really shouldn't be a factor whether cranwell is charitable or out for profit, a lot of us are the latter, and we're all part of this community just the same.

 

What should matter is that there's a huge lack of communication that needs fixing. If yesterday, buying absolutely anything off the SCM is fine, and today it isn't, then we traders don't just deserve to know, we need to know. We are the trading community, all of us, and surely there's mutual interest to let us know when our accounts on any popular trading sites are at risk.

 

I fully agree with polar from a moral standpoint. Cranwell knew he was trading with a marked scammer, but that shouldn't be the issue here: as a fellow trader, this is completely unfair. Doesn't matter if it's his 1st or 100th offense, we all trade with the rules of sites like Outpost in mind tons of times daily, especially guys like cranwell. None of us should find it acceptable to see another trader, who does his business within the same rules as everyone of us, banned forever just so we're notified that any trading sites extends it's rules to the SCM. There's announcements for that (and grace periods, if you're feeling humane). Ruining someone's trading career permanently just to set an example and spread the message like that should not be ok with anyone here. 

[Gone]

What did you do last to get banned?

[AwesomeMcCoolName]

I'm honestly amazed how all of you aren't supporting cranwell in this. Up until now, the SCM was fair game, without any ifs or buts. Aren't we the guys who have to work with the rules our trading sites put forth anymore? I really don't get how so many of you think what matters here is a judgement of the situation. No, this really shouldn't be about opinions, but about maintaining a working ruleset for us traders. From profiteers to collectors, we come in all shapes and sizes, and it really shouldn't be a factor whether cranwell is charitable or out for profit, a lot of us are the latter, and we're all part of this community just the same.

 

What should matter is that there's a huge lack of communication that needs fixing. If yesterday, buying absolutely anything off the SCM is fine, and today it isn't, then we traders don't just deserve to know, we need to know. We are the trading community, all of us, and surely there's mutual interest to let us know when our accounts on any popular trading sites are at risk.

 

I fully agree with polar from a moral standpoint. Cranwell knew he was trading with a marked scammer, but that shouldn't be the issue here: as a fellow trader, this is completely unfair. Doesn't matter if it's his 1st or 100th offense, we all trade with the rules of sites like Outpost in mind tons of times daily, especially guys like cranwell. None of us should find it acceptable to see another trader, who does his business within the same rules as everyone of us, banned forever just so we're notified that any trading sites extends it's rules to the SCM. There's announcements for that (and grace periods, if you're feeling humane). Ruining someone's trading career permanently just to set an example and spread the message like that should not be ok with anyone here. 

Theres a very big difference between buying something from a scammer off the SCM and KNOWINGLY doing so. 

 

Had he not made the status showing that he knew the condition of the seller than I seriously doubt he would've been banned. But he knew he was buying it off a scammer, and he CHOSE to buy it, full well knowing where it was coming from. 

[Kevin the Chicken God]

Theres a very big difference between buying something from a scammer off the SCM and KNOWINGLY doing so. 

 

Had he not made the status showing that he knew the condition of the seller than I seriously doubt he would've been banned. But he knew he was buying it off a scammer, and he CHOSE to buy it, full well knowing where it was coming from. 

Nick acknowledges that he knew later on in his post

the main thing he (and other supporters of Cranwell being unbanned) said was that the guy he traded with was banned long ago and no longer scams/deserves to be marked, which is a completely off topic point. Cranwell is smart enough to know trading with that guy meant he would be banned, but he went ahead and traded with him anyways, it makes no difference as to why/how long ago the guy was banned.

[polar]

Up until now, the SCM was fair game, without any ifs or buts.

 

This has not been stated anywhere. Knowingly trading with scammers is knowingly trading with scammers. People just haven't been banned for trading with scammers on SCM because they have never been reported. This is literally the first ever report I have gotten about someone trading with a scammer on SCM. Knowingly trading with scammers is clearcut.

 

The trouble we get into is how to deal with people who unknowingly trade with scammers. This is an issue that goes beyond SCM trades. Even in item trades I have seen highly variable bans (anywhere from just a warning to a 2 week ban for first time offenses). What are reasonable expectations of traders? Do we require that the person just check SR? That website is practically defunct now. What about outpost / bp.tf bans with proof showing the person is a scammer? What about pending reports on SR? What about a check of the person's profile to see if it's an alt? What about situations where the person traded with a person who traded with a scammer or a person 2-3 sellers down from the scammer? Do we start progressively banning people down the line? These are issues not just of SCM but of trading as a whole. We haven't figured it out yet in item trades and we are far from figuring it out in something like SCM trades where you start dealing with a multitude of alts. But that doesn't necessarily mean that SCM should be treated any differently.

 

What we have here is a rare case where the proof was provided in an SCM trade. It was so blatantly obvious what happened. I don't see how anyone could handle this case any differently.

 

And to get to your main point, if you have to ask yourself whether it's okay to trade with a person, you probably shouldn't. There are reasons we try to keep people from trading with scammers. And those reasons don't change whether the trade is for keys or for steam wallet funds.

[=NickFury=]

This has not been stated anywhere. Knowingly trading with scammers is knowingly trading with scammers. People just haven't been banned for trading with scammers on SCM because they have never been reported. This is literally the first ever report I have gotten about someone trading with a scammer on SCM. Knowingly trading with scammers is clearcut.

That's exactly the issue. We're the ones who work with those unwritten rules every single day. Like you said, it's not explicitly written anywhere, but we all shared the practical experience that trades on the SCM were beyond reproach by any trading site. There were even some instances where people proved their "innocence" to Outpost mods by showing that they got the item off the SCM. ...and that was pretty much all the info we could rely on, and work with on a daily basis to keep our accounts safe.

 

Changing that is fine and good, the moral justification is certainly there. However, what I don't think is fine is to announce it by banning a high tier trader for doing it. That's the worst possible way to communicate a change there is, and surely none of us needed cranwell banned forever to get the memo. You're right on all other accounts, but to me, this is crucial. At the end of the day, we all have a common interest in keeping our accounts in good standing on the sites we use the most, and it should definitely concern everyone of us if that good standing is at risk even if you play by what appears to be the rules. If Outpost wants to ban people for buying off scammers on the SCM, I trust that's alright by everyone, but banning a well-known trader forever to get that message across really isn't.

[polar]

That's exactly the issue.

 

These are all fair issues and issues I have with the way bans are handled in general. That's fine. But one thing I want to again emphasize is the difference between knowingly and unknowingly trading with a scammer. There is no grey area when you knowingly do it and there is proof of that. I still cannot understand how that can be justified in any way. You keep saying he should not be permanently banned. And that is where I have an issue. We have always been crystal clear about cases like this.

[Aearsears]

 

On a serious note though, I do think that it was your own greed and fault that you went ahead and bought the tossle despite the SR markings. Sorry cranwell, but a mistake is a mistake and we all have to move on don't we?

 

 

 

pls no ragerino

[Aearsears]

 

On a serious note though, I do think that it was your own greed and fault that you went ahead and bought the tossle despite the SR markings. Sorry cranwell, but a mistake is a mistake and we all have to move on don't we?

 

pls no ragerino

[nicksaysmeep]

 

 

On a serious note though, I do think that it was your own greed and fault that you went ahead and bought the tossle despite the SR markings. Sorry cranwell, but a mistake is a mistake and we all have to move on don't we?

 

pls no ragerino

 

Stop quoting yourself.

[Aearsears]

Stop quoting yourself.

 wat

[Pogo]

As my grandfather used to say, "Don't think so highly of yourself, the world was spinning before you arrived, and will continue to do so with you gone." 

[knavesmith]

 

On a serious note though, I do think that it was your own greed and fault that you went ahead and bought the tossle despite the SR markings. Sorry cranwell, but a mistake is a mistake and we all have to move on don't we?

 

 

 

pls no ragerino

You're like 5 pages late to post that. I could have posted that on page 3, but go knew it was too late for a meme.

[PaRappa the Papaya]

I'm sorry Cranwell no hard Feelings but I'm going to have to side with outpost

 

you decided to trade with someone you knew full well was marked and you have already been warned before about it

 

Again no hard feelings but you decided to do this and now you have to accept your punishment

[Kevin the Chicken God]

I'm sorry Cranwell no hard Feelings but I'm going to have to side with outpost

 

you decided to trade with someone you knew full well was marked and you have already been warned before about it

 

Again no hard feelings but you decided to do this and now you have to accept your punishment

you dont have to say "no hard feelings", I honestly have difficulty imaging cranwell getting pissed at someone xD

[Torr.]

what wrong with buying stolen items e.e

 

its not like the person who had them stolen from would get them back :L

Its like buying a stolen car. Its still stolen right?

[Grimes]

you dont have to say "no hard feelings", I honestly have difficulty imaging cranwell getting pissed at someone xD

 

I'm convinced he's an AI programmed to buy good scm deals.

[knavesmith]

I'm convinced he's an AI programmed to buy good scm deals.

I thought he was actually 3 Dratinis all working together to do some trading. One camps the SCM, another responds to adds, trade offers, and the sort, and the last one freeloads off the other 2.