Should I try to appeal the bans?

[Amen]

Sorry, gotta side with outpost on this one, being given a second chance is already something you should learn from. But then being warned by ppl that the hat is most likely dirty and still buying it, that isn't something you should get a third chance for.

 

I believe creamy got banned from outpost after his second offense as well.

 

Not sure what the polls have to do with your ban status, but no matter your community status, breaking a rule should always be the same result for everyone.

[Gent♥]

Anybody who came to this thread not expecting all unimaginable hellfire was clearly deluded. Hopefully I may just calm things a notch.

 

Why do rules exist? By extension, why do laws exist?

 

Both rules and laws exist to encourage desirable behavior and, in turn, to punish undesirable behavior.

Here, a ban is punishing undesirable behavior - that is, knowingly trading with a marked scammer (the SCM middle-manning is irrelevant, in this case.)

 

To be found guilty of a non-statutory regulated crime, two factors must be present (Not just a pretty face over here, eh?)
Actus Reus - The 'Guilty Act.' This is clearly present - this is no denying you did indeed trade with a scammer.

Mens Rea - The 'Guilty Mind.' Again, not contestable - You were aware the seller was marked, and proceeded to do so anyway.

 

Thus, anybody who is suggesting you not be punished at all, is allowing personal factors to cloud their judgement. It is not debatable that a punishment is required.

 

Then, mitigating and aggravating factors must be considered.

On the one side, you do good work for the community - nobody here is not acknowledging this.

However, this is your second offence - and previous 'convictions', so to speak, do not count in your favour.

 

So we arrive at a middle-ground, somewhat. Based on what has been presented, I can only consider your unbanning unlikely at best.
Unless new evidence is brought to light (which it may well be, if Draco's link is deemed worthy of further investigation), there is little here to quibble over.

 

A purely objective view. I'll be sad to see you go, Cranwell, but there's very little that can be done. I feel I may be speaking for a lot of people when I say that.

 

I move to lock this thread. Nothing constructive is being achieved.

[Shadowslayer]

While you may be banned you still have Trade servers where you can openly trade and eventually you can start your own Massive trafficking site where you can welcome those who feel the laws of tf2 trading are to brutal.

[BBC2SNIPER1]

You were banned for 2 weeks and that got reduced to 1 week. That should be you're last and only warning period. But knowing how outpost mods work you will probably be unbanned. That's just my view that fact you knew about it 100% and gave ~10 minutes to think about it and decided to care about profit more then the aftermath.

[Gent♥]

While you may be banned you still have Trade servers where you can openly trade and eventually you can start your own Massive trafficking site where you can welcome those who feel the laws of tf2 trading are to brutal.

 

 

You were banned for 2 weeks and that got reduced to 1 week. That should be you're last and only warning period. But knowing how outpost mods work you will probably be unbanned. That's just my view that fact you knew about it 100% and gave ~10 minutes to think about it and decided to care about profit more then the aftermath.

 

 

I move to lock this thread. Nothing constructive is being achieved.

 

[Mrs TS]

While you may be banned you still have Trade servers where you can openly trade and eventually you can start your own Massive trafficking site where you can welcome those who feel the laws of tf2 trading are to brutal.

That is, unless SteamRep finally looks at his trading practices and decided to mark him for what he has done. It wouldnt be the first time they marked someone for trading with marked scammers.

[cranwell96]

 

Sorry if I got facts wrong/made insults while chatting with him.

[Gent♥]

The end. I'm afraid that may have been your last bastion. 

 

I will forever treasure my PE Buckaroo's in your memory.

[Heated Bread]

The main factor has to be that SteamRep has nothing on why the user was banned and that the systems that put bans on him are no longer in motion. Without proper documentation it is hard not to look at the SteamRep mark as just a blanket statement. You knew full well the person was marked for something, but the fact that Outpost had no explicit rules governing the purchase through the SCM is where you get off on the technicality.

 

I think they're separate matters.  Perhaps old undocumented tags should be dropped, but this does not change the fact that cranwell was banned for knowingly and wilfully trading with someone who was marked as a scammer after he had already been warned for a previous offense.  I don't think there can be a more clear case for a ban, most especially since it was clearly documented that he knew before he did the trade. 

 

It doesn't matter where the trade took place either.  No trades take place on outpost anyway.  All trading is done off-site.  Only listings and comments happen on outpost.  The rules are rules of conduct that you must follow if your use of the site is to be allowed to continue.  Most of them cover conduct directly related to posting your listings and comments on the site, and some of them relate to things that do not and cannot happen on the site.

[Gent♥]

I think they're separate matters.  Perhaps old undocumented tags should be dropped, but this does not change the fact that cranwell was banned for knowingly and wilfully trading with someone who was marked as a scammer after he had already been warned for a previous offense.  I don't think there can be a more clear case for a ban, most especially since it was clearly documented that he knew before he did the trade. 

 

It doesn't matter where the trade took place either.  No trades take place on outpost anyway.  All trading is done off-site.  Only listings and comments happen on outpost.  The rules are rules of conduct that you must follow if your use of the site is to be allowed to continue.  Most of them cover conduct directly related to posting your listings and comments on the site, and some of them relate to things that do not and cannot happen on the site.

Not to mention Cranwell literally just provided evidence to suggest said tag was relevant.

[Heated Bread]

Not to mention Cranwell literally just provided evidence to suggest said tag was relevant.

 

Much to his credit, in my book.  He could easily have chosen not to share it.  I have to respect that he was open in sharing this even though the information isn't favorable to him. 

[v³ Unknown NO FEAR]

 

Sorry if I got facts wrong/made insults while chatting with him.

 

Thanks for being honest about it. It's clear that he was tagged justifiably now. 

[Draco Blaze]

I think they're separate matters.  Perhaps old undocumented tags should be dropped, but this does not change the fact that cranwell was banned for knowingly and wilfully trading with someone who was marked as a scammer after he had already been warned for a previous offense.  I don't think there can be a more clear case for a ban, most especially since it was clearly documented that he knew before he did the trade. 

 

It doesn't matter where the trade took place either.  No trades take place on outpost anyway.  All trading is done off-site.  Only listings and comments happen on outpost.  The rules are rules of conduct that you must follow if your use of the site is to be allowed to continue.  Most of them cover conduct directly related to posting your listings and comments on the site, and some of them relate to things that do not and cannot happen on the site.

 

I'm not condoning his actions. I am actually very against them. A ban was necessary since he knowingly bought it off a Marked Scammer, but what I am arguing is against the process in which it happened. The idea of Outpost permanently banning and then creating a rule because of the events of the ban is a bit backwards. Yes Cranwell should have known better, but the SCM has always been a gray area similar to international waters.

[Heated Bread]

I'm not condoning his actions. I am actually very against them. A ban was necessary since he knowingly bought it off a Marked Scammer, but what I am arguing is against the process in which it happened. The idea of Outpost permanently banning and then creating a rule because of the events of the ban is a bit backwards. Yes Cranwell should have known better, but the SCM has always been a gray area similar to international waters.

 

That's not what happened.  They did not create a rule to ban him.  They banned him because he broke an existing rule.  And trying to claim that the community market somehow represents and exception to that rule is dishonest in my opinion.  What could possibly make you think that it's an exception?

[polar]

To everyone who finds the ban ridiculous, I want you to read this again: http://i.imgur.com/e8ul7F6.jpg. In what world is that okay? There is no way you can possibly spin that to be excusable. 

 

The argument that we shouldn't put our hands into SCM's business is moot. He linked an OUTPOST link that showed the user was banned on BP.TF FORUMS. He saw that the user was banned. He was warned that the user was banned and not to trade with him yet he did it anyways. This is as open and shut of a case as there comes. 

 

I'm not saying we will ban everyone for every single trade with a scammer from SCM on bp.tf if they did it unknowingly. Lots of listings that get made come from alts and it would be an impossible task to try to tease all those apart. But in this case, none of that is even in question. He bought directly from a marked scammer and he knew it. It is ridiculous to me that anyone finds this ban unjust. 

 

Also, people seem to be incredibly misinformed. Sometimes we hand 2-4 warnings to people for UNKNOWINGLY trading with scammers depending on the situation. But KNOWINGLY trading with scammers has always resulted in an instant permanent ban, no exceptions.

[Draco Blaze]

That's not what happened.  They did not create a rule to ban him.  They banned him because he broke an existing rule.  And trying to claim that the community market somehow represents and exception to that rule is dishonest in my opinion.  What could possibly make you think that it's an exception?

 

No existing rule regulates trade via the SCM. The rule they are using is an interpretation of #8 due to the fact of his before-hand knowledge. It was the fact that there is documentation that he knew the item came from a scammer that he is banned. That is the exception. The fact that the SCM  purchases have really never been regulated by anyone outside of Valve makes the exception. 

[Heated Bread]

No existing rule regulates trade via the SCM. The rule they are using is an interpretation of #8 due to the fact of his before-hand knowledge. It was the fact that there is documentation that he knew the item came from a scammer that he is banned. That is the exception. The fact that the SCM  purchases have really never been regulated by anyone outside of Valve makes the exception. 

 

It's not a special interpretation.  He knowingly traded with a marked scammer.  It doesn't matter where the trade took place, or whether wallet funds were involved as opposed to paypal or bitcoins or keys/buds/etc.  Trying to claim that the steam market is some kind of special exception to the rules is absurd IMO.

[TheMightyPotato]

People would still care after 2-3 years? You know, after that person might have changed and matured? Well alright, I guess I should be like everyone else and walk around like my farts don't stink.

[polar]

EDIT: IMO, Outpost, SR, etc. will eventually strangle itself as more and more of TF2's most prolific and influential traders are being alienated and shutdown thus becoming their own downfall.

 

Quite the opposite. The only people who are getting banned are profiteers, people who have literally sunk $0 into the economy from their own pocket and have just taken, taken, taken. I'm not saying there's anything bad about profiteering. Do it responsibly and no one will have an issue. 

 

The high profile traders who support the economy - the bobs, the neymars, the matties, the chewbs - will never be banned. They would never risk their reputations on trades like these. They are the ones who hold the economy up by sinking thousands of their own dollars into the game for the benefit of everyone else. And you won't see any of them getting banned. 

[Budi]

I think cranwell should be unbanned because with more and more people getting scamed everyday, Its hard not to buy a scammed item. Im not saying you should but there a alot of new traders who dont know these rules.  Cranwell made a big mistake but Banning him would be throwing 600 buds in trash and that really hurts the community. The other thing is that If people like cranwell are banned, alot of high tier traders are starting to quit tf2 for example, Bob Cheez and Lomcharton. With no trustworthy traders you get a community full of scammers.

 

Im Sorry if i was very vague on the topic here.

 

 

While the ban is probably justified after the multiple warnings, this is a bit of a concern. The more these unusuals fall into the hands of scammers or alts that are "off limits" for trading, that just hurts the community by having them literally locked up forever to never be acquired by anyone. What if a scammer holds a 1 of 1 in the world unusual? How is it fair to the community as well to withhold an item then from being used or traded for? 

 

The spreading fear of item histories is also a concern. More and more people will refuse to trade for an item that has any banned users in the item history, even if the ban was unwarranted or frivolous. So basically over time these items are only going to collect more and more marked users, which is going to stall the trading of these items. That will have a negative effect on the economy, if it hasn't already. 

[Distinctively Vincent]

In my eyes, trading through SCM is no different than regular trading. It'd be one thing if the system hid the identity of the sellers, but since it doesn't, there's no excuse not to check in a high level trade, and certainly no excuse in going through with a trade with knowledge of the seller being involved in scamming in the past. The only reason people don't want to check is fear of someone else taking it in the meantime, and if the deal's that good that it's a concern, that's exactly when you need to be checking.

[OverduePixels]

In my eyes, trading through SCM is no different than regular trading. It'd be one thing if the system hid the identity of the sellers, but since it doesn't, there's no excuse not to check in a high level trade, and certainly no excuse in going through with a trade with knowledge of the seller being involved in scamming in the past. The only reason people don't want to check is fear of someone else taking it in the meantime, and if the deal's that good that it's a concern, that's exactly when you need to be checking.

 

The problem is almost the whole S.C.M users does not do that(do background checks). If people are going to get banned for that, might as well ban almost all S.C.M users, which is almost the whole Steam Community. I can say for sure almost every S.C.M user have bought and sold items from scammers/hijackers, of course not intentionally, they quickly trade in fear of someone snatching the deal before someone else does. It can't be stopped. Especially when people lurks around S.C.M and uses trade.tf live deals.

 

This is how it is going to work and sites like Outpost and Bazaar have to deal with it, if they want to keep their site up that is. If they find out that the user traded intentionally and fully was aware then they can do the ban just like they did with Cranwell because he was fully aware of the person he was trading with.

 

Edit : Forgot to add... It is well clearly explained here by Polar, if you knew who you were trading with and was fully aware and over all that you were warned beforehand, you deserve the ban. Simple as that. http://forums.backpack.tf/index.php?/topic/18341-should-i-be-unbanned/page-3&do=findComment&comment=204046

[nicksaysmeep]

In my opinion, the SCM is fair game for anyone. If we would've banned anyone who bought scammed/phished items, probably half the Dota 2 and quite a bit of the TF2 community would be SR marked.

 

While the ban is probably justified after the multiple warnings, this is a bit of a concern. The more these unusuals fall into the hands of scammers or alts that are "off limits" for trading, that just hurts the community by having them literally locked up forever to never be acquired by anyone. What if a scammer holds a 1 of 1 in the world unusual? How is it fair to the community as well to withhold an item then from being used or traded for? 

 

The spreading fear of item histories is also a concern. More and more people will refuse to trade for an item that has any banned users in the item history, even if the ban was unwarranted or frivolous. So basically over time these items are only going to collect more and more marked users, which is going to stall the trading of these items. That will have a negative effect on the economy, if it hasn't already. 

I agree with you here.

 

Anyways, all scammed items that are sold for "below normal price" would be bought anyways by people without caring, which then would be sold again, most likely for quicksell prices, to more users, and if we ban everyone that traded with a banned user, there would be an unnecessary amount of bans that would discredit many contributing members of the community.

 

/rant

[AwesomeMcCoolName]

In my opinion, the SCM is fair game for anyone. If we would've banned anyone who bought scammed/phished items, probably half the Dota 2 and quite a bit of the TF2 community would be SR marked.

 

I agree with you here.

 

Anyways, all scammed items that are sold for "below normal price" would be bought anyways by people without caring, which then would be sold again, most likely for quicksell prices, to more users, and if we ban everyone that traded with a banned user, there would be an unnecessary amount of bans that would discredit many contributing members of the community.

 

/rant

What exactly are these members "contributing"? 

 

Oh, and its worth noting, theres nothing wrong with buying a hat down the line if it at some point came from a scammer. The issue is being the initial fence. Now, if being the initial fence gets you banned, people will see less and less value in buying scammed items resulting in less running around the market, resulting in fewer scams. If there was no "punishment" for scamming then I'm willing to bet the number of scams that occur on a daily basis would be drastically higher. 

[Chimera]

Theres a VERY big difference between accidentally buying and knowingly buying. 

Maybe so. Just because someone said "I wouldn't trust ____" doesn't really mean a whole lot. Should it raise a red flag? Yes. But that's all.