Suggestion frequency

[NoobsAlwaysDieFirst]

Hi

I'm Noobs and i'm pretty new on this site ( 1 month). So you may not know me.

I'm here to discuss about suggestion frequency problem.

I'm noticing a trend that is deserving price suggestion. Many people are running for rep instead of giving accurate and fair prices.

For example when a price is accepted on an item, it's easy to check few hour laters for  a cheaper price and make a new suggestion.

So there are many and frequent suggestion on the same items, made with irrelevant links(<1 day old).

(that's the case of the strange PDA)

Some suggestion are accepted with older links, but the point is how can we determine the relevance of an unsold link:

Unsold link since 2 days for a strange kritzkrieg, doesn't have the same "value"  than one for a common craftable hat. I think this point should be clear out (perhaps it is, and i'm simply ignorant).

Then instead of following and reporting prices, those suggestion are leading the market, and make backpack.tf more influential than it should be.

If it's for a slight adjustment( for example changing the low end) the consequence are limited but that's not the same if u change the high-end/or both on a limited time.

Many sellers trust backpack.tf, and the market needs time to "absorb" price changes.

10 hours, 1 day , 1 week, it's really hard to determine this "absorption time", based on multiple factor as demand, price, market trend....

So to limit this effect, i would suggest to take in consideration the time since the last suggestion.

First  I thought about blocking suggestion during a time, but it's clearly inappropriate, since this time can't be determinated.

But  a better solution would be to get more rep with an old/outdated  price. More distant in time, the last suggestion is, more rep you get.

Then people wouldn't make suggestion always on the same items, and old prices would be updated more regularly.

 

So thx for your further and constructive comments.

PS: if there is any grammar mistakes,don't bother to tell me, english is not my native tongue so this a great way to improve myself

 

NoobsAlwaysDieFirst.

[∞Ramses]

There are some users known to do this.

[NoobsAlwaysDieFirst]

I noticed some of them, that's why i opened this topic.

[Woifi The Viking]

Interesting point.^^

[Rhys13th]

I think maybe have an amendment to the rules, that trades may not be used as proof for unsold or unsuccessful unless over 3 days old. That would solve the problem of too quick suggestions, but there can't be a fallow time, else responses to incorrect prices would be delayed.

[AwesomeMcCoolName]

I think maybe have an amendment to the rules, that trades may not be used as proof for unsold or unsuccessful unless over 3 days old. That would solve the problem of too quick suggestions, but there can't be a fallow time, else responses to incorrect prices would be delayed.

Except, that could also lead to an issue displaying incorrect prices. 

 

What if there are 40 trades open selling an item for 2 keys less than the listed price? i.e, 50 people are selling s. gunslinger for 32 keys. BUT none are more 2.5 days old........would the suggestion not be warranted? 

 

So, there is an inherent issue with putting any restrictions.....

[NoobsAlwaysDieFirst]

Except, that could also lead to an issue displaying incorrect prices. 

 

What if there are 40 trades open selling an item for 2 keys less than the listed price? i.e, 50 people are selling s. gunslinger for 32 keys. BUT none are more 2.5 days old........would the suggestion not be warranted? 

 

So, there is an inherent issue with putting any restrictions.....

 

I think rhys13th was talking about  putting restriction only  for unsold(for high end decrease) or unsuccessful(for low end increase).

But like you, i don't think that would solve the problem. It would even create new ones(i.e  the new suggestion is not a range like your example below // set time of restriction // restriction only on specific proof..... )

[@@@@@@]

cough long218 cough

[Chief D]

Oh god tell me about it. I love your idea, but maybe people will post this craft hat's price is 2488372 years old an now people pay 1.33-1.44.

 

I hate those scrap changes.

 

Anyways, your idea seems etter than blocking suggetions for a set time... You have my +1 for now.

[NoobsAlwaysDieFirst]

Oh god tell me about it. I love your idea, but maybe people will post this craft hat's price is 2488372 years old an now people pay 1.33-1.44.

 

I hate those scrap changes.

 

Anyways, your idea seems etter than blocking suggetions for a set time... You have my +1 for now.

Thx.

Every system has its own limits, but i think that those "quicksuggesters" are more harmful than "scrapsuggesters".

So, it's late for me now, I'm going to sleep............zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

[Jymotion]

I disagree with a tiered rep system based on time.  You pointed out that time is relative when it comes to things like how long a s. kritz has been unsold for and how long a craftable hat has gone unsold for.  I feel the same relativity applies to how frequently prices change.  For example, buds have been falling quickly lately.  In other words, previous suggestions for buds have become outdated quickly (and quicker than items like brown paint or weapon re-skins).  I don't think that makes new earbud suggestions any less important (i.e. less deserving of rep).  You suggest it as a disincentive for people to rapidly make suggestions in hope of points, but I see clear situations where it acts as a disincentive to update a rapidly changing price.

 

I think a simple reputation system is best (along with a mentality that those points are not the be-all end-all) and that the usefulness of the links and the accuracy of the suggestion should remain under the discretion of the voters and the moderators.

[NoobsAlwaysDieFirst]

I disagree with a tiered rep system based on time.  You pointed out that time is relative when it comes to things like how long a s. kritz has been unsold for and how long a craftable hat has gone unsold for.  I feel the same relativity applies to how frequently prices change.  For example, buds have been falling quickly lately.  In other words, previous suggestions for buds have become outdated quickly (and quicker than items like brown paint or weapon re-skins).  I don't think that makes new earbud suggestions any less important (i.e. less deserving of rep).  You suggest it as a disincentive for people to rapidly make suggestions in hope of points, but I see clear situations where it acts as a disincentive to update a rapidly changing price.

 

I think a simple reputation system is best (along with a mentality that those points are not the be-all end-all) and that the usefulness of the links and the accuracy of the suggestion should remain under the discretion of the voters and the moderators.

I understand your point of view .

Your example of buds changing quickly is interesting, just looks at the frequency of  accepted suggestion, there are few days between each of them.

Moreover, there is tf2finance which give the market trend, so it regulates the suggestion frequency (22.47 now for eabuds->time to make suggestion for 22-23keys)

Now take a look at quicksuggestion for rep that i'm pointing out:

Examples:

 *Strange Invis Watch: 3 days ago (7-8 keys)/ 2days ago(7-7.5 keys)/17 hours ago(6.5-7 keys) And now active suggestion(5-6 keys)

 *Strange PDA: 3 days ago(12 keys)/3 days ago(11-12 keys)/2 days ago(11 keys)/23  hours ago(10 keys)(Closed now)

 *Strange krizkrieg: 6 days ago(44-45 keys)/5 days ago(43-44 keys)/3 days ago(40-42 keys)/1 days ago(38-40 keys)

 *Strange machina: 6 days ago(21-22 keys)/3 days ago(20-22 keys)/2 days ago(20-21keys)/

As you see, there can be many suggestion in the same day: Do you think that those change are justified? Dropping price of Invis watch for 7-7.5 keys to 6.5-7 keys in only 24 hours/  few hours later make a new suggestion

to drop this price to 5-6 keys/ does it really reflect the market? I don't think so. Those suggestion are not slight adjustment, they 're real bumps, making the old price completely wrong(suggestions on earbuds are completely different on this point) .

Now if you check in details those suggestion, many proof are not relevant with unsolds<1day as expected, they didn't even let the market settle down.

Sellers don't even get the time to sell at the suggested price, that there is a new one. Something more incomprehensive is that those suggestion got accepted by voters(i'm not  blaming the system, as i'm a part of it, but  sometime voters should check more seriously proofs/counterproofs...).

What if now the same things happens to keys(increasing price everyday, or even twice a day)? Would you say that the objectivity of backpack is guaranteed? Would you trust backpack? Many people would probably say that's a price manipulation and I would understand them.

That's the kind of suggestion that i'm pointing out in this topic.

This is one pernicious effect of rep points.

I agree  that some quicksuggestion are motivated by updating price quickly, but you have to admit that some others are motivated by rep points.

This is more a race for rep. They are running faster than the market, and instead of reporting prices, they create those prices.

 

So, I still think that tiered rep can be a solution. This solution won't stop people making suggestion or decide how frequently prices must change, it's not the aim.

if you want to update prices fairly , it wouldn't bother you to get less rep points unlike those rep racer.

 

I also understand your point saying it would be unfair, and obviously that's true(also depends on how u share out rep). But I think for now that rep points are less important than the reliablity of backpack.

[Jymotion]

I...

 

I better understand what type of suggestions you are talking about now.  It's just difficult to think of an automated system that would prevent that without making the disincentives I mentioned earlier. I completely agree that rep points are not nearly as important as the integrity of the site.  I just don't know if making the change to the system would be necessary/effective.  Couldn't a change in moderation philosophy/protocol counteract rep-racing?

[NoobsAlwaysDieFirst]

I better understand what type of suggestions you are talking about now.  It's just difficult to think of an automated system that would prevent that without making the disincentives I mentioned earlier. I completely agree that rep points are not nearly as important as the integrity of the site.  I just don't know if making the change to the system would be necessary/effective.  Couldn't a change in moderation philosophy/protocol counteract rep-racing?

I'm glad that you understand better what I'm pointing out. The main goal of this topic was to warn about this issue. The solution that i suggest is the more "valid" that i have. So it might not be perfect, and I'm not sure that it would be really effective as noone can predict how people would react. But it's just a try, and i'm staying tuned to any other good suggestion. The most important thing, is to agreed, that something must be done.

[MC22]

What they should just do is put in the 5% rule of change so you don't see long changing 9 to 8.75-9.

[Santa Heavy]

There are some users known to do this.

hi

[MC22]

Suggestion frequency*Suggestion wavelength=Suggestion speed

 

Want your suggestions accepted faster?

Increase that lambda!(hl2 symbol)

[Santa Heavy]

Suggestion frequency*Suggestion wavelength=Suggestion speed

 

Want your suggestions accepted faster?

Increase that lambda!(hl2 symbol)

need moar mana.