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Should steamrep work with valve to ban players?


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Basically the title, whenever someone gets marked as a scammer they will be banned from steam and trade banned so that can't export their items to alts.

I don't know if this is already happening but just leave your thoughts below :)

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The problem is Valve doesn't seem to give much of a shit about scammers. That's why Steamrep came to existance in the first place, because of Valve's complete and utter inadequacy.

 

If Valve wanted to deal with scammers they have their own data that they could use which I'm sure is much more comprehensive than SR reports...

 

Seems like the only way to reliably get people trade banned is by directly dealing with a Valve employee or certain Steam community moderators (done both) but they tell you to sod off pretty quickly and to use their incredible reporting system that does fuck all. :angry:

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Something you need to remember is our role, and our policies, differ from Valves. A scammer tag is intended to serve as a public warning, while a trade ban is intended to punish or deny benefit to scammers. Our policies also differ - for example, Valve recommends you never trade anything outside the trade window, but we recommend procedures to trade for PayPal safely.


Speaking personally, and not on behalf of SteamRep, I would be very open to Valve working with us in an official capacity, but it'd be up to them to work with us. It's not like we can approach them ourselves asking for privileges to ban people.

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2 hours ago, MrDeepDarkmind said:

I think @Diamond jozu mentioned something about the bootleg version of gambling (SpyCrabbing) and someone didn't pay up and later on they got a temp trade ban from valve 

yes it was true.it happened a couple of months ago.another example is one of my friend who apparently is trade banned for 19 years because of chargebacking about 100 items from the steam market.on his profile,it doesnt show 'currently trade banned' but when i try trading with him,it shows he is trade banned'he even has a golden pan...

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3 hours ago, Diamond jozu said:

yes it was true.it happened a couple of months ago.another example is one of my friend who apparently is trade banned for 19 years because of chargebacking about 100 items from the steam market.on his profile,it doesnt show 'currently trade banned' but when i try trading with him,it shows he is trade banned'he even has a golden pan...

sure gonna love that golden pan in 19 years

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9 hours ago, -Tubidubidam! said:

no,  because it's too easy to create fake reports on steamrep

I don't know why no one ever mentions this. Literally all steamrep relies on is screenshots, which are the least secure thing in the world. No matter how you make people take them, screenshots will not be secure, particularly for text. Even if the text isn't supposed to be editable, I'm sure you can find a way to edit it, and editing text into screenshots is laughably easy.

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4 minutes ago, Axle Change said:

I don't know why no one ever mentions this. Literally all steamrep relies on is screenshots, which are the least secure thing in the world. No matter how you make people take them, screenshots will not be secure, particularly for text. Even if the text isn't supposed to be editable, I'm sure you can find a way to edit it, and editing text into screenshots is laughably easy.

 

If I may chime in here, there's more to it than just looking at screenshots or taking someone's word at face value. There's a lot of validation and fact checking involved, as well as screening images for tampering. We're not perfect - nothing ever can be - but people tend to seriously underestimate our ability to spot fake evidence. We've been doing this for about 6 years now. Finally, if all else fails, and the accused doesn't get a chance to respond to those unconfirmed reports before an admin accepts, that's why we have appeals.

 

Now if we're still talking about Valve working with us, then in that hypothetical situation we'd more than likely have access to a handful of resources to compare with these screenshots. As we are now, we mirror reports from the community after vetting the evidence provided, using every single resource we have to ensure we're making the right call. If we worked with Valve in an official capacity, we'd be using everything we have, plus whatever additional resources Valve had for investigating. Whether you agree with that or not is your own call to make - and it's realistically never going to happen either way so it hardly matters - but I'd like to think in that scenario we'd be like a Steam Support branch with an intrinsically motivated volunteer team who does nothing but investigate fraud, probably more quickly and accurately than Steam Support's track record.

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14 hours ago, xxBonsai99xx said:

The problem is Valve doesn't seem to give much of a shit about scammers. That's why Steamrep came to existance in the first place, because of Valve's complete and utter inadequacy.

 

If Valve wanted to deal with scammers they have their own data that they could use which I'm sure is much more comprehensive than SR reports...

 

Seems like the only way to reliably get people trade banned is by directly dealing with a Valve employee or certain Steam community moderators (done both) but they tell you to sod off pretty quickly and to use their incredible reporting system that does fuck all. :angry:

 

Valve's "utter inadequacy"?  Lol.

 

Who was fixing the problems, i.e returning the items?  Valve

 

Who solved absolutely nothing? SR

 

Look at Penek.  He continues to scam until this day,. no matter how many alts SR bans.  SR was, is and always will be completely useless and unnecessary.  If you think SR is the good guy in the fight against scammers, you need to educate yourself on just how dysfunctional that body of people is.  Their heart may be in the right place, but they have proven themselves over the years to be utterly inefficient at dealing with scammers and unbelievably slow to deal with the demands of the community (e.g. Bill's hat rule, trading with scammers, appeals process, etc.). 

 

The exact number of people would have gotten scammed if SR didn't exist.  Reason being is that the people naive enough to get scammed are also too ignorant to check SR.  So what is SR actually good for?  Banning scammers, who then make 100s alt and continue to scam.  Talk about a wasted effort. 

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On 9/1/2017 at 1:49 PM, Gren said:

 

Valve's "utter inadequacy"?  Lol.

 

Who was fixing the problems, i.e returning the items?  Valve

 

Who solved absolutely nothing? SR

 

Look at Penek.  He continues to scam until this day,. no matter how many alts SR bans.  SR was, is and always will be completely useless and unnecessary.  If you think SR is the good guy in the fight against scammers, you need to educate yourself on just how dysfunctional that body of people is.  Their heart may be in the right place, but they have proven themselves over the years to be utterly inefficient at dealing with scammers and unbelievably slow to deal with the demands of the community (e.g. Bill's hat rule, trading with scammers, appeals process, etc.). 

 

The exact number of people would have gotten scammed if SR didn't exist.  Reason being is that the people naive enough to get scammed are also too ignorant to check SR.  So what is SR actually good for?  Banning scammers, who then make 100s alt and continue to scam.  Talk about a wasted effort. 

 

I don't even know what to say to this post. It's wrong on multiple levels, and I'm starting to question just how disconnected you are from reality.

 

First off, Valve doesn't return items. You're absolutely wrong about them doing that. And to blame us for not returning items when Steam Support won't, doesn't make any sense. While they have a decent reason for not returning items, if controversial, I think it's absurd you're taking the high ground by defending Steam Support, and propping them up as better than us. Deficient customer service is the single most common reason for hating on Valve.While they are improving, response times to a typical ticket - with a web form being your only option to contact them - ranged from 2 days (if lucky) to several weeks. And compared to other game companies like EA who had telephone and live chat support, was quite abysmal. Then, when you finally got a reply, it was usually completely unrelated to your questionSometimes not even in the same languageGabe himself admitted fault with how Steam Support was implemented. I realize sometimes people falsely equate us to Steam Support, or praise us for needlessly doing the job Valve won't do, and that's a common misunderstanding, but your reply and comparison tends more towards delusional.

 

Second, I think you completely misunderstood the point of SR. Our job isn't to fill the void left by Steam Support's failure to keep up with scammers. We're a public database that anyone can look a profile up to see if it has been reported for scamming, so you know to avoid it. We warn, Valve punishes. Our job is to warn and educate the community, not to act as the "Steam police" that strong-arms stolen items back and punishes evil-doers every time a scam happens. Quite a few people use and rely on our database for information. It has stopped a number of people from getting scammed as they looked up profiles in our database, sometimes even learning of a new scam they didn't know existed. The people randomly thanking me as I join a server and telling me how many times SteamRep prevented them from getting scammed by malware/impersonation/whatever suggests we're making at least some impact. Could/Will the scammer add them again from another account? Probably. But now the victim is a little more on guard against it.

 

Third, scammers will always make alts. Trade bans from Valve won't stop them from doing that either, and Penek isn't even the biggest scammer out there; I can think of scammers who have a lot more alts than him. If you measure our success or utility by a binary metric of whether or not scams still happen somewhere, then you're the one who needs a reality check. The kind of utopia where no scams can ever take place is simply not going to happen.

 

Just because some people can be reached by scammers before they know a resource to help them exists, doesn't mean that resource shouldn't exist at all. Nor does it mean that resource accomplished absolutely nothing; many of the people using our database or reading our guides would have gotten scammed otherwise, probably repeatedly. Scammers are often really crafty, because they do it for a living. Contrary to popular belief, you really don't have to be an idiot to get scammed; you just have to run into a method you haven't seen before.

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3 hours ago, Lava said:

 

I don't even know what to say to this post. It's wrong on multiple levels, and I'm starting to question just how disconnected you are from reality.

 

First off, Valve doesn't return items. You're absolutely wrong about them doing that. And to blame us for not returning items when Steam Support won't, doesn't make any sense. While they have a decent reason for not returning items, if controversial, I think it's absurd you're taking the high ground by defending Steam Support, and propping them up as better than us. Deficient customer service is the single most common reason for hating on Valve.While they are improving, response times to a typical ticket - with a web form being your only option to contact them - ranged from 2 days (if lucky) to several weeks. And compared to other game companies like EA who had telephone and live chat support, was quite abysmal. Then, when you finally got a reply, it was usually completely unrelated to your questionSometimes not even in the same languageGabe himself admitted fault with how Steam Support was implemented. I realize sometimes people falsely equate us to Steam Support, or praise us for needlessly doing the job Valve won't do, and that's a common misunderstanding, but your reply and comparison tends more towards delusional.

 

Second, I think you completely misunderstood the point of SR. Our job isn't to fill the void left by Steam Support's failure to keep up with scammers. We're a public database that anyone can look a profile up to see if it has been reported for scamming, so you know to avoid it. We warn, Valve punishes. Our job is to warn and educate the community, not to act as the "Steam police" that strong-arms stolen items back and punishes evil-doers every time a scam happens. Quite a few people use and rely on our database for information. It has stopped a number of people from getting scammed as they looked up profiles in our database, sometimes even learning of a new scam they didn't know existed. The people randomly thanking me as I join a server and telling me how many times SteamRep prevented them from getting scammed by malware/impersonation/whatever suggests we're making at least some impact. Could/Will the scammer add them again from another account? Probably. But now the victim is a little more on guard against it.

 

Third, scammers will always make alts. Trade bans from Valve won't stop them from doing that either, and Penek isn't even the biggest scammer out there; I can think of scammers who have a lot more alts than him. If you measure our success or utility by a binary metric of whether or not scams still happen somewhere, then you're the one who needs a reality check. The kind of utopia where no scams can ever take place is simply not going to happen.

 

Just because some people can be reached by scammers before they know a resource to help them exists, doesn't mean that resource shouldn't exist at all. Nor does it mean that resource accomplished absolutely nothing; many of the people using our database or reading our guides would have gotten scammed otherwise, probably repeatedly. Scammers are often really crafty, because they do it for a living. Contrary to popular belief, you really don't have to be an idiot to get scammed; you just have to run into a method you haven't seen before.

 

1. Valve dupes items.  Much less so now than in the past.  Sure, they don't 'return' them in the traditional sense, so let's use the technical term for duping, i.e. 'item restore'.   To the end user, the result is the same (they got their items back), everything else is semantics.  

 

And if they really were so horrendously inefficient, one wonders why there are so many dupes, and further, why they eventually introduced 2-way verification :think: ...which leads me to point 2.

 

2. I understand your reason for existence just fine, the usefulness of which as far as I'm concerned diminished severely when you got rid of rep threads.  I understand the point today is supposed to be preventative education, but that clearly doesn't work in most cases.  You seek to educate the ignorant, but in most cases that doesn't work, because the ignorant don't check SR. 

 

3.  Glad we're on the same page here, scammers gonna scam, not much you can do about it. 

 

Here's my main issue with you guys (and a part of my post you neglected to address, so I'll say it again):  Your performance record is terrible.  How long did it take you to get rid of the 'ban for trading with banned users' rule?  How long did it take you to change the minimum value of a trade rule?  What is the average length of time for answering appeals?   The answer to all of these questions is years.  These were easy calls to make, and the fact that it took you such an enormous length of time to make these changes shows your organizational dysfunction.  Meanwhile, people ended up with community bans, effectively shutting them out of the entire TF2 community for running from 3 key spy crabs.  Your draconian practices which were then adopted by the larger community are partially responsible for pushing traders into different economies - mainly CSGO - where they don't have to worry about doing a lengthy background check for anybody they want to trade a skin with.   And that, in my books, far outweighs your utility as an educator of the ignorant.  

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49 minutes ago, Gren said:

 

1. Valve dupes items.

 

2. I understand your reason for existence just fine,

 

where they don't have to worry about doing a lengthy background check for anybody they want to trade a skin with.   And that, in my books, far outweighs your utility as an educator of the ignorant.  

Valve absolutely stopped duping items like almost 2 years ago.

 

SR is fine as a database for all the communities who use them, saves everyone of those communities a lot of time and manpower.

 

"lengthy background check" - a background check takes 10-20 seconds, I wouldn't call that lenghty.

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1 hour ago, Woifilicious said:

Valve absolutely stopped duping items like almost 2 years ago.

 

SR is fine as a database for all the communities who use them, saves everyone of those communities a lot of time and manpower.

 

"lengthy background check" - a background check takes 10-20 seconds, I wouldn't call that lenghty.

 

Yes, coinciding with 2 way verification.  I would assume that scamming in general, or at least account hacking has also decreased drastically since then, due to 2 way verification.  Sort of proves my point, Valve has been much more effective than SR in actually doing something about scamming.

 

Re. database....sounds great in theory, doesn't work as well in practice. BP and OP have always been faster and more accurate with their bans.  Seems to me that the bp trust system is a more reliable way of identifying scammers now, and to boot, it also doubles as a cash trading rep system.

 

Oh c'mon Woifi...maybe today it does, but there was a time not so long ago where you legitimately had to do a thorough background check before you could do anything.  The case where Frost got his OP ban (there was a thread on it here years ago) proves that point, even Polar criticized OP mods for expecting far too much in terms of reasonable thoroughness.

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2 hours ago, Gren said:

 

1. Valve dupes items.  Much less so now than in the past.  Sure, they don't 'return' them in the traditional sense, so let's use the technical term for duping, i.e. 'item restore'.   To the end user, the result is the same (they got their items back), everything else is semantics.  

 

And if they really were so horrendously inefficient, one wonders why there are so many dupes, and further, why they eventually introduced 2-way verification :think: ...which leads me to point 2.

 

2. I understand your reason for existence just fine, the usefulness of which as far as I'm concerned diminished severely when you got rid of rep threads.  I understand the point today is supposed to be preventative education, but that clearly doesn't work in most cases.  You seek to educate the ignorant, but in most cases that doesn't work, because the ignorant don't check SR. 

 

3.  Glad we're on the same page here, scammers gonna scam, not much you can do about it. 

 

Here's my main issue with you guys (and a part of my post you neglected to address, so I'll say it again):  Your performance record is terrible.

 

Valve stopped duping items altogether after they made the mobile app mandatory for trading. Before that, they only duped items if they were able to confirm you were hijacked. And part of why they quit duping is because Steam Support kept running into staged hijackings with VPNs (some hard for Steam Support to sort out) from scammers, hoping to double their inventory value before selling everything off. People who weren't getting scammed or weren't gaming the system in CS:GO complained about rare skins becoming less rare as a result, so Valve did away with it altogether.

 

They introduced the mobile app to curb account hijacking, which as they said in their announcement, took up the vast majority of their Steam Support tickets. Valve themselves couldn't keep up with phishing/hijacking cases (which we abandoned as well), so they simply decreed everyone must use 2-factor authentication with their mobile app or they (basically) don't trade, and don't play competitive in TF2 or CS:GO. And that didn't really accomplish much because the same people building phishing sites transitioned over to fake gambling and fake cashout sites within a couple weeks. Instead of saying "Enter your username and password into this brand new Russian website" scammers are saying "Deposit your items into this brand new Russian website". And despite their best efforts, Valve is still struggling to keep those in check, even with that pending court case forcing their hand. That doesn't exactly spell success for me.

 

SteamRep has never had rep threads to get rid of. Again, you appear confused and disconnected from reality.

 

I'm not going to keep arguing with you about semantics and specifics of SteamRep here. I get that you don't like SteamRep, and while some of your concerns are grossly rooted in misinformation, some are also valid. It's your choice to not like us, and I can't make you. You don't even have to use our database anymore, if you don't mind losing access to websites like bp.tf that expect you to check who you're dealing with. A lot has improved for SteamRep over the years; for example, reports are now handled quickly, usually within 24 hours of being submitted, while we work backwards through the backlog. Appeals will be caught up eventually too, but in the meantime we quickly pre-screen them to minimize the chance innocent people caught in the crossfire end up waiting that long.

 

29 minutes ago, Gren said:

Yes, coinciding with 2 way verification.  I would assume that scamming in general, or at least account hacking has also decreased drastically since then, due to 2 way verification.  Sort of proves my point, Valve has been much more effective than SR in actually doing something about scamming.

 

Re. database....sounds great in theory, doesn't work as well in practice. BP and OP have always been faster and more accurate with their bans.  Seems to me that the bp trust system is a more reliable way of identifying scammers now, and to boot, it also doubles as a cash trading rep system.

 

Oh c'mon Woifi...maybe today it does, but there was a time not so long ago where you legitimately had to do a thorough background check before you could do anything.  The case where Frost got his OP ban (there was a thread on it here years ago) proves that point, even Polar criticized OP mods for expecting far too much in terms of reasonable thoroughness.

 

Account hijacking is mostly gone (scammers impersonating Valve employees still convince a few children to give out their email password too once in a while), because of a change in how Steam operates, but that didn't do anything to stop scamming. The people who hijacked accounts for a living moved onto fake gambling sites, fake cashout sites, and malware plugins. That's why you got so many invitations to Steam groups advertising gambling sites, and now friend requests with the site in their name, since group invites were nerfed.

 

BP and OP generally haven't forwarded their bans back to us. If they did, that might be different. If you noticed, bp.tf has recently applied as a partner community, so maybe that will change soon too.

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3 hours ago, Rosalina said:

 

Lol. Do you honestly believe this?

 

On 9/1/2017 at 1:37 PM, Lava said:

-snip-

 

I guess I'll explain my concerns with steamrep here. I think they're doing the right thing, but at the end of the day most of the evidence is circumstantial or weak. 

 

Just taking random ass examples out of the blue of SR reports:

1) https://forums.steamrep.com/threads/report-76561197973752233-csgo-counter-strike-global-offensive-items.169303/

 

I'm not saying these people weren't scammers/impersonators because they clearly are, however if you look at each piece of evidence individually they all could be faked/a scammer could just post counter fake evidence. 

 

2 of the pictures are from the web browser, which means absolutely zilch, it takes 5 seconds to edit HTML then screenshot with no image tampering. Regaring in-client pictures it is more tricky, however I'm completely sure it is feasible to fake. With image tampering it would probably not take very long to change the URL in the client, which is regarded as hard evidence. Outside of that, I'm sure it would not take very long at all to code a fake steam client for fake images. In the chat logs you cannot see the the scammer's id,etc. anywhere, the only thing there is his name. The link between that chat and the impersonator is purely by assumption rather than by actual evidence. 

 

Impersonation cases are obviously easy to deal with because their profiles are typically public, so an admin can quickly verify things. However, if they just hid their profile there is not much non-fakable evidence that I see against them.

 

Whenever I see cases like these it actually kind of worries me. Because it should be easy enough to make the call but with the evidence presented publicly its not. Basically the problem is that chat logs, etc. on steam are private and there really is no way to prove many things happened without valve's database. 

 

Most of this doesn't matter because scammers are idiots or don't care enough to hide things because its not worth their time, and I recognize this is theory-crafting and not the reality of the situation, but I still find it disturbing.

 

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3 hours ago, Axle Change said:

I guess I'll explain my concerns with steamrep here. I think they're doing the right thing, but at the end of the day most of the evidence is circumstantial or weak. 

 

Just taking random ass examples out of the blue of SR reports:

1) https://forums.steamrep.com/threads/report-76561197973752233-csgo-counter-strike-global-offensive-items.169303/

 

I'm not saying these people weren't scammers/impersonators because they clearly are, however if you look at each piece of evidence individually they all could be faked/a scammer could just post counter fake evidence. 

 

2 of the pictures are from the web browser, which means absolutely zilch, it takes 5 seconds to edit HTML then screenshot with no image tampering. Regaring in-client pictures it is more tricky, however I'm completely sure it is feasible to fake. With image tampering it would probably not take very long to change the URL in the client, which is regarded as hard evidence. Outside of that, I'm sure it would not take very long at all to code a fake steam client for fake images. In the chat logs you cannot see the the scammer's id,etc. anywhere, the only thing there is his name. The link between that chat and the impersonator is purely by assumption rather than by actual evidence. 

 

Impersonation cases are obviously easy to deal with because their profiles are typically public, so an admin can quickly verify things. However, if they just hid their profile there is not much non-fakable evidence that I see against them.

 

Whenever I see cases like these it actually kind of worries me. Because it should be easy enough to make the call but with the evidence presented publicly its not. Basically the problem is that chat logs, etc. on steam are private and there really is no way to prove many things happened without valve's database. 

 

Most of this doesn't matter because scammers are idiots or don't care enough to hide things because its not worth their time, and I recognize this is theory-crafting and not the reality of the situation, but I still find it disturbing.

 

 

I'd be lying if I said I didn't have similar concerns when I joined SteamRep's staff - albeit I was more worried about alts than I was about fake evidence. The idea of someone malicious framing me for something I didn't do to trash my reputation is terrifying, even in real life. Hell, once upon a time I actually encouraged/upvoted posts critical of SteamRep because I thought in the back of my mind "one day they're either someone is going to frame me and refuse to honor my appeal, or SR will think I'm an alt and there will be nothing I can do to prove my innocence". Truth be told, having learned how things work from the inside, I'm a lot less worried about it now.

 

I wish I had something I could say to ease your mind, but our practices for identifying and dealing with fake evidence are strictly confidential. This is not because we're embarrassed or ashamed - quite the contrary, we're very adamant and fairly open about that with partner communities who themselves can issue tags - but because if we publicly outlined what we look for, how we identify it, or how we respond to it, then we'd be painting a roadmap for scammers to thwart our detection. Are we perfect? Of course not, nobody can be - but I think for all the years we've been doing this, we're a hell of a lot better at it than people like above make us out to be. I know firsthand there are scammers who periodically make new accounts just for the purpose of fake reporting, typically to either retaliate against or extort their victims (one of the reasons I say not to even bother adding marked scammers), and they're sometimes crafty, but because we're secretive about what we're looking for or how we caught them, we usually catch them in the act. In practice, fake evidence is far more common coming from the accused to get out of a tag (oddly enough), but I've seen it happen from both sides.

 

It's true we have limited scope and visibility - beyond what most people think, but still limited - but we have procedures and best practices in place to minimize that risk. If you are reported with bogus evidence, then you either reply in the report, if it's still open, or you submit an appeal citing fake evidence with whatever evidence to the contrary you have. Once you do this, it will make clear to our admins that one of you - either the reporter or accused - is tampering with evidence, and we need to get to the bottom of that ASAP to minimize damage. If the report isn't accepted yet, it won't be accepted at all until all conflicts in evidence are resolved. If you wait until appeal time, it will be harder because procedures change, but assuming you write it up properly and are clear about the issue, it should be caught in pre-screening before it goes into the long queue. Although I can't go over our procedures, I'll tell you that some of our recommended best practices for admins include not relying on a single picture, fact-checking and verifying information from other sources, and checking for any kind of conflicting information from the accused.

 

I'm not supposed to speak about specific cases, including the one you linked, but the admin in question tends to give psuedo-scripted responses on purpose. I think part of this is to obscure what he's actually thinking, and some posts will have additional notes that the public cannot see. As I said, best practice guidelines say he should not rely on a single piece of evidence, and indeed you can see in that report the admin clearly goes through the accused (pre-edit there were 3 profiles listed in accused block) and differentiates actual scammers from impersonation victims, some of which can reasonably be proven scammers themselves without the scam report.

 

In summary, fake evidence is not something we haven't thought of, and though none of our admins will openly speak about (or usually even acknowledge) it, we're well aware of it.

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  • 3 weeks later...
On 1-9-2017 at 7:49 PM, Gren said:

 

Valve's "utter inadequacy"?  Lol.

 

Who was fixing the problems, i.e returning the items?  Valve

 

Who solved absolutely nothing? SR

 

Look at Penek.  He continues to scam until this day,. no matter how many alts SR bans.  SR was, is and always will be completely useless and unnecessary.  If you think SR is the good guy in the fight against scammers, you need to educate yourself on just how dysfunctional that body of people is.  Their heart may be in the right place, but they have proven themselves over the years to be utterly inefficient at dealing with scammers and unbelievably slow to deal with the demands of the community (e.g. Bill's hat rule, trading with scammers, appeals process, etc.). 

 

The exact number of people would have gotten scammed if SR didn't exist.  Reason being is that the people naive enough to get scammed are also too ignorant to check SR.  So what is SR actually good for?  Banning scammers, who then make 100s alt and continue to scam.  Talk about a wasted effort. 

 

I am pretty sure SR saves around 60% of people from scams or sketchy acts. 1 downvote is enough to make you suspicious about the person. I think this system is perfect. If someone is reported to SR it does not neccesarily have to mean they are an actual scammer. You can look at the report what he was accused of exactly and make your own opinion weither or not to trade him.

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