Adding Ref Sinks to TF2, I need your help!

[TheVirtualEconomist]

Greetings everyone! 

 

As many of you guys know, I just released part 2 in my video series about the key to refined ratio. That means I am starting to work on the third and final part. (And no, it won't take me two months to release, so don't worry).

 

Anyway, the third part will focus on ways to quote un quote "solve" the problem. While I will talk about many approaches Valve can and can't take to solve the problem, the main topic I will address in the video is how Valve could implement what are dubbed "Ref sinks". For those who don't know, ref sinks are places that the community can get rid if refined metal to get some sort of in-game benefit. On a more economical level, this would reduce the supply of refined while simultaneously increasing the demand of refined, which would theoretically bring the cost of keys in refined down.

 

In addition to blatantly giving away part of the video,  I am making this post to outsource potential ideas for ref sinks. I have a good list already, but I bet the community can come up with even better ones. So, I invite you guys to comment below and discuss, what ref sinks could valve add to TF2? Who knows, maybe if your suggestion is good enough, it might just make it into my next video! 

 

Thanks!

 

Oh, btw, if you are totally unaware of what I am talking about, here are the first two videos in my series (Yes, I know it's shameless self-promotion : P)

 

 

[ѕιи]

Valve has no intentions of making a metal sink.

[Happysedits]

If Valve would make a new crafting recipe, ref -> keys, that would kinda solve it. For example 15 ref = 1 key, then the price wouldn't change anymore. But I think Valve won't do any ref sink because it's Valve. I don't even know if it didn't somehow crash the market too because if keys instantly changed like that, current prices of items that are being sold on SCM would be very inaccurate because it sells for a certain amount on SCM and the bp price would be in 1 night different.

[ThePickleCat]

Some things I wish we could do with ref

1. The ability to use more ref to increase the chances of something good from crafting

2. The ability to craft other items like paint or tools for a large amount of ref

3. If you want to get crazy a way to convert ref into 7 day untradeable keys would be awesome

4. The ability to sell ref on SCM

[TheVirtualEconomist]

Valve has no intentions of making a metal sink.

 

 

7:17 We have proof that they have considered it. I would imagine the reason they haven't done anything yet is because they 

 

1) don't know what would be the best solution and

2) don't know weather it would be worth expending their limited resources to implement.

[ѕιи]

 

7:17 We have proof that they have considered it. I would imagine the reason they haven't done anything yet is because they 

 

1) don't know what would be the best solution and

2) don't know weather it would be worth expending their limited resources to implement.

 

7:31 "...but have found it very difficult to implement a system that would not be taken advantage of..."

 

That would fit in with "don't know what would be the best solution." I don't know where you got the "worth expending their limited resources to implement" part.

[ksolis01]

The economy is fine as it is. The minimum you can put in your steam wallet is $5 which is best spent on two keys. Most people that spend on this game either through steam or marketplace are buying keys and not refined. In other words, higher key prices in term of refined is better for the majority of people because more bang for your key. The only people that don't benefit are low tier traders but most can agree that low tier trading is picking pennies of the ground, and is mostly dominated by bots anyway. I beg to differ the assumption here that we do need a ref sink when higher key prices benefit most people asides from the exceptions I stated.

 

Edit: I can't spell

[Keroro1454]

7:31 "...but have found it very difficult to implement a system that would not be taken advantage of..."

 

That would fit in with "don't know what would be the best solution." I don't know where you got the "worth expending their limited resources to implement" part.

 

This quote sounds like PR more than anything else.

 

Valve has no incentive to make a refined metal sink. They actively profit from refined metal having a lower value. When keys are worth more and more refined metal, newer players are much more likely to purchase one. No longer can keys get you 2-3 hats, you can now easily get hats for your whole cast of characters, plus a few miscs. to boot. This increase in a key's spending power makes the key appear more and more attractive to newer players, who are more likely to drop the small sum required for a key if in exchange they find themselves with a wealth of items.

 

Certainly, Valve gains "more" if keys are worth less metal- people need to buy more keys to get all of the hats they want. But consumers react to positive economic signals moreso than to negative ones- the more appealing key will obtain more "undecided" buyers than the less appealing, less valuable one.

[TheVirtualEconomist]

The economy is find as it is. The minimum you can put in your steam wallet is $5 which is best spent on two keys. Most people that spend on this game either through steam or marketplace are buying keys and not refined. In other words, higher key prices in term of refined is better for the majority of people because more bang for your key. The only people that don't benefit are low tier traders but most can agree that low tier trading is picking pennies of the ground, and is mostly dominated by bots anyway. I beg to differ the assumption here that we do need a ref sink when higher key prices benefit most people asides from the exceptions I stated.

 

The thing is, you are probably biased since you've only started trading recently. The low tier market use to be very profitable, because it didn't take 50 trades to make the value of a key. The real problem is that the economy currently isolates anyone who is unwilling to invest X amount of keys in the first place. Right now it is primarily profitable for traders like you who trade unusuals. It should be profitable at all levels.

 

7:31 "...but have found it very difficult to implement a system that would not be taken advantage of..."

 

That would fit in with "don't know what would be the best solution." I don't know where you got the "worth expending their limited resources to implement" part.

 

There are ways that the tf team can make the system less gameable. I interpreted that line as "we are looking for a solution but have to work out this out first"

The second part was me being logical about everything that has came to light about the TF team in the last few months.

[TheVirtualEconomist]

This quote sounds like PR more than anything else.

 

Valve has no incentive to make a refined metal sink. They actively profit from refined metal having a lower value. When keys are worth more and more refined metal, newer players are much more likely to purchase one. No longer can keys get you 2-3 hats, you can now easily get hats for your whole cast of characters, plus a few miscs. to boot. This increase in a key's spending power makes the key appear more and more attractive to newer players, who are more likely to drop the small sum required for a key if in exchange they find themselves with a wealth of items.

 

Certainly, Valve gains "more" if keys are worth less metal- people need to buy more keys to get all of the hats they want. But consumers react to positive economic signals moreso than to negative ones- the more appealing key will obtain more "undecided" buyers than the less appealing, less valuable one.

 

I don't know if other people think this way, but I think that Valve as a company is far too overanalyzed. We know how Valve functions.. The TF team has less than 15 people on it. I honestly don't think there is someone scheming in the corner "Ooooh!! If we just ignore the community we will make more profit! Let's screw the players!"  No, I don't think it works like that. Like I said in the response above, I believe it is more an issue of priorities than anything else.  

[MrDeepDarkmind]

kinda feel like this so called "metal sink" will just kill Keys

[McBro]

For one I'd love to see metal sinks used in crafting simple items. For example name tags or tools. Using ref as a part in KS kit fabricators would also help a lot

[✪ Vergo ✪ |⚡️| [⇄]]

The economy is fine as it is. The minimum you can put in your steam wallet is $5 which is best spent on two keys. Most people that spend on this game either through steam or marketplace are buying keys and not refined. In other words, higher key prices in term of refined is better for the majority of people because more bang for your key. The only people that don't benefit are low tier traders but most can agree that low tier trading is picking pennies of the ground, and is mostly dominated by bots anyway. I beg to differ the assumption here that we do need a ref sink when higher key prices benefit most people asides from the exceptions I stated.

 

Edit: I can't spell

I can agree 100% to that ^

[ѕιи]

The thing is, you are probably biased since you've only started trading recently. The low tier market use to be very profitable, because it didn't take 50 trades to make the value of a key. The real problem is that the economy currently isolates anyone who is unwilling to invest X amount of keys in the first place. Right now it is primarily profitable for traders like you who trade unusuals. It should be profitable at all levels.

 

It still is profitable though...

[Nade]

What about new unusual effects that can be found only by crafting? Obviously wouldn't be as valuable as a crated one, and would probably have the same value as a rare hockey card in a pack. Doesn't have to be more than a slight shimmer or sparkle to make people sink all of their ref into it

 

Edit: call them abnormals

[Z ;)]

If Valve would make a new crafting recipe, ref -> keys, that would kinda solve it. For example 15 ref = 1 key, then the price wouldn't change anymore. But I think Valve won't do any ref sink because it's Valve. I don't even know if it didn't somehow crash the market too, anything could happen with such sudden change.

That would tank the economy. Way too many keys.

[Tobbby92]

The amount of people who think that being able to craft keys with metal is a good idea is too damn high.

[Apo]

If valve sponsored tf2 e-sports becomes a thing, I think a good sink would be crafting ref (3?) into an eSports Crate, unlockable with an eSports Key (Purchasable from Mann Co. Store.)

[Bodomi #Ms. Lady]

They should give us the option to craft more things with metal, and make the required amount of refined to craft X reasonable.

The current craft hat recipe is just bad, 3 ref with a terrible chance to get anything worth around 3 Refined is just not good and it's a waste.

 

They could make seasons; let me explain.

 

One month we are able to craft X for Y amount of refined metal, then it changes the next month.

So for example month 1 we are able to craft Backpack Expanders, month 2 we are able to craft Name Tags and so on...

The amount 1 person is able to craft might be limited to avoid abuse.

It would have to be done in a way that wouldn't get abused though and I am not smart enough to know what that is.

 

Another thing that would help would be lowering the chance of getting craft weapon drops and instead making crates the norm, like in CS:GO.

Another thing that could help would be doing the same thing as I just mentioned but also removing the 10 random drops altogether and making the 10 random drops come from completing a match(Comp, Casual, MvM) and you wouldn't be guaranteed a drop each time, maybe make it so it would take you 15-20 completed matches to get your 10 random drops, and with this the chance of getting a craft weapon should be reduced.

Make a recipe that new players can use where you put in X amount of Refined for a pack of untradeable craft weapons, this would counter any argument that says "In the long run this would make crafting weapon supplies low", which it wouldn't, but there you go.

 

 

This is a very.. weird idea but they could do other things like removing the option to purchase X(this could be anything from ToD tickets to Keys, although I would be opposed to being able to craft keys) and instead replacing it with a recipe to craft it.

If done with the correct type of item this could be a great metal sink while at the same time not creating a weird rupture in the market.

 

 

I'd love to hear anyones thoughts on these ideas and anyone's suggestions to change them for the better.

Please point out any dire flaws

[Z ;)]

They should give us the option to craft more things with metal, and make the required amount of refined to craft X reasonable.

The current craft hat recipe is just bad, 3 ref with a terrible chance to get anything worth around 3 Refined is just not good and it's a waste.

 

They could make seasons; let me explain.

 

One month we are able to craft X for Y amount of refined metal, then it changes the next month.

So for example month 1 we are able to craft Backpack Expanders, month 2 we are able to craft Name Tags and so on...

The amount 1 person is able to craft might be limited to avoid abuse.

It would have to be done in a way that wouldn't get abused though and I am not smart enough to know what that is.

 

Another thing that would help would be lowering the chance of getting craft weapon drops and instead making crates the norm, like in CS:GO.

Another thing that could help would be doing the same thing as I just mentioned but also removing the 10 random drops altogether and making the 10 random drops come from completing a match(Comp, Casual, MvM) and you wouldn't be guaranteed a drop each time, maybe make it so it would take you 15-20 completed matches to get your 10 random drops, and with this the chance of getting a craft weapon should be reduced.

Make a recipe that new players can use where you put in X amount of Refined for a pack of untradeable craft weapons, this would counter any argument that says "In the long run this would make crafting weapon supplies low", which it wouldn't, but there you go.

 

 

This is a very.. weird idea but they could do other things like removing the option to purchase X(this could be anything from ToD tickets to Keys, although I would be opposed to being able to craft keys) and instead replacing it with a recipe to craft it.

If done with the correct type of item this could be a great metal sink while at the same time not creating a weird rupture in the market.

 

 

I'd love to hear anyones thoughts on these ideas and anyone's suggestions to change them for the better.

Please point out any dire flaws

You have a Jake and Amir signature. We need to be friends.

[Keroro1454]

I don't know if other people think this way, but I think that Valve as a company is far too overanalyzed. We know how Valve functions.. The TF team has less than 15 people on it. I honestly don't think there is someone scheming in the corner "Ooooh!! If we just ignore the community we will make more profit! Let's screw the players!"  No, I don't think it works like that. Like I said in the response above, I believe it is more an issue of priorities than anything else.  

 

This isn't over-anyalzing, I'm not qualified to talk about economics (yet) but it's a pretty simplistic concept. It's not something Valve needs to scheme over, and frankly it's a win-win situation for everyone except for "scrap2unusual" kiddies, people Valve inherently has no interest in helping because they actively seek to put no money into the game. Metal inflation helps the players, helps Valve make more money, and pushes toxic little kids who don't understand market principles or ethics out of the economy. There are no losers that matter in this scenario, frankly I hope Valve keeps up its inaction in this area- there's far more important areas of TF2 that need Valve's attention

 

It's not hard to come up with a "solution". Hell, they don't even need to as players have come up with numerous extremely promising ideas. That's not even an issue of priority then, because they have the mental calisthenics done for them. It's an active choice, and one I completely agree with.

[TheVirtualEconomist]

It still is profitable though...

 

I mean I never said it wasn't. It is just much less profitable than it once was.

 

This isn't over-anyalzing, I'm not qualified to talk about economics (yet) but it's a pretty simplistic concept. It's not something Valve needs to scheme over, and frankly it's a win-win situation for everyone except for "scrap2unusual" kiddies, people Valve inherently has no interest in helping because they actively seek to put no money into the game. Metal inflation helps the players, helps Valve make more money, and pushes toxic little kids who don't understand market principles or ethics out of the economy. There are no losers that matter in this scenario, frankly I hope Valve keeps up its inaction in this area- there's far more important areas of TF2 that need Valve's attention

 

It's not hard to come up with a "solution". Hell, they don't even need to as players have come up with numerous extremely promising ideas. That's not even an issue of priority then, because they have the mental calisthenics done for them. It's an active choice, and one I completely agree with.

 

 

The thing is, you don't really have any proof the way it is right now is better for Valve. The other way around could be better, and neither of us would be able to provide any evidence to support or deny it. (ex. Less buying power of keys makes people buy more keys) The only way Valve could be certain of this would be to hire someone who can run the cost-benefit models of both scenarios. We both know Valve wouldn't do this, especially for their 10 year old game. (iirc Gabe confirmed in one of his VNN interviews that Valve has absolutely no budgeting process. Without this for even steam, you can bet there is absolutely 0 budgeting process for TF2) You might disagree, but there is no way Valve is doing this out of some formulated plan of attack. 

 

Also, I intended this thread to be about discussing ideas for ref sinks, not debating weather valve will add them or not. After all, I am making this video assuming Valve at least has considered doing this. If you wish to debate more about weather you think valve will add a ref sink or not, one of you two should make your own thread.

[Bodomi #Ms. Lady]

I roll my eyes at people who think every company ever does things only for money.

People who think most companies would let down 95% of its user base in favour of benefiting only 5% for an extra small amount of profit is just... no.

 

I understand what a business is, some people apparently don't.

If your reply to the above is "But it's a business, they do it to make money" then yea... no. Both parties; consumers and the company, would benefit more from the thing that would make 95% of its consumers happy with the company losing a miniscule amount of profit.

 

 

In most cases it's not as simple as "Do the one that gives us more money".

 

 

Sorry for dragging out off-topic shit but it really infuriates me.

 

To conclude; everyone, in the long run, would benefit from a proper metal sink or something that would greatly reduce the amount metal that enter the economy in the first place.

[ѕιи]

>Crafting strange weapons

>Crafting strange parts

>Crafting festive weapons

>Crafting taunts

 

(Keep in mind these don't have to all cost 3 ref to do)

[Haxor Gaming]

>Crafting strange weapons

>Crafting strange parts

>Crafting festive weapons

>Crafting taunts

 

(Keep in mind these don't have to all cost 3 ref to do)

 

Its a good idea, but Valve is a business, that wants to make money. And being able to get items with triple the value of the input will make them lose money. They would make it so you would lose profit on almost all occasions.