Eid And The Muslim Community.

[Gren]

Actually, that's not asked by the Quran. Electronarcosis is also considered Halal.

 

As far as I get it - the animal must be alive when then they kill it (othwise it's considered carrion, which is forbidden), while a number of convensional stun techniques used by slautherhouses have a decent rate of accidently killing the animal (for the slaughterhouse, this obviously makes no difference).

 

 

"....Alive when they kill it...."  

 

As opposed to dead when they kill it? Lol...

 

Classic Hypercube

[Svode]

In France, Eid is called "L'Aïd El Kebir" or simply "L'Aïd".

 

During this day, muslims slaughter thousands of sheeps. The french laws for slaughter are severe and can't be respected for Eid because they require high standards of hygiene and "animal welfare" that are contradictory with the islamic traditions. Thus, a vast majority of sheeps slaughtered this day for Eid will be clandestinely.

 

Overwhelmed by the phenomenon, the french administration decided to open temporary slaughterhouses where muslims can bring the animals to slaughter. These temporary slaughterhouses are normally controlled by veterinary services. In fact, these temporary slaughterhouses proceed without stunning the animal. Animals are killed with full consciousness as asked by the Coran (Qran). A blue tongue fever epidemic is latent every year due to the permissiveness of the french authorities. Other risks are latent with the Eid.

 

French laws ask for minimum requirements such as : classified installation with strict standards, special facilities (hard floors and smooth walls which are easy to clean and disinfect, regulated movement, facilities to evacuate and treat animal waste (such as blood, washwater, skins, viscera...), equipment (cold room for storage, spinal cord extractor, very strict procedures. Regulations asks that carcass must leave at 7° at heart (which requires 24h of refrigeration so as to prevent sanitary problems). In reality, muslims get the carcass immediately after the slaughter (they want it warm). A few people pursued some of these temporary slaughterhouses so as to make the regulations enforced. The french minister of the interior said it was important to satisfy muslim attachement to their tradition. Each year, temporary slaughterhouses are authorized for the Eid. Controls are not completed. Many other muslims slaughter themselves the animals in very bad condition : parking, barn, equestrian centre, bathtub at home, etc. All of this is tolerated regardless of the french regulations for slaughtering.

 

Muslim community is growing fast in France, due to immigration, high reproductive rate. French politicians don't want to "offend" muslims and tolerate a lot from the muslim community (for electoral issues). It exacerbates the tensions between muslim and non-muslim people. In reality, muslims consider their culture and religion superiors to any other. They don't conform to traditions in France, European countries and other countries in the world.

 

On the same topic but on a different level. Muslim and jewish people slaughter their animals differently, it is called ritual slaughter. In France, it has been years now that they have a derogation. The problem now is that, due to costs, it is more interesting for slaughterhouses not to respect french laws for slaughtering. They ask for the ritual slaughter derogation and thus save money. A lot of meat that comes from french slaughterhouses don't respect basic regulations so as to ensure hygiene and animal welfare. Many french people buy meat from animals slaughtered in bad conditions without knowing it.

 

You're mentioning the wrong Eid there.

[Tats]

You are right. I thought Eid was the name of a celebration but in arabic it means celebration.

So basically, there are two Eid : Eid El-Adha (the one I was talking about : celebration of the sacrifice) and Eid El-Fitr (the one that ends Ramadan).

 

Thank you for the info.

[Hyperqube]

You are arguing on a detail, whatever how you justify it, the result is the same :

 

Muslim people invoke the Q'ran and some others will add the teachings of the hadiths.

 

The result is the same, they attempt to motivate the slaughter of animals with full-consciousness :

I dunno. France could say that, since the sources like the Egyptian Fatwaa Committee say that it is halal - they could allow the sacrifice, but only under electronarcosis.

 

It's a comprosise that solves one of the issues you mentioned, so I wouldn't say "the result is the same".

 

That's not to say it solves the entire problem, but at least it's a step in the right direction.

 

 

"....Alive when they kill it...."  

 

As opposed to dead when they kill it? Lol...

 

Classic Hypercube

Thank you for spotting the wordplay

[the_007_remix]

Muslim immigration is a problem. This can be shown by basically any country in the EU, prime examples being Sweden and Germany. Sweden's violent crime rates have gone up by 300% and rape rates by 1,472% (http://www.allenbwest.com/ashleyedwardson/mainstream-media-wont-tell-you-why-sweden-is-now-rape-capital-of-the-west). These rapes are, of course, Muslim men raping non-Muslim women. It's not a surprise that Islamists would do this as the Koran clearly permits it ( https://www.thereligionofpeace.com/pages/muhammad/rape.aspx). These are pretty clear evidence, and if you need more, just view https://www.thereligionofpeace.com/, check it's sources if you find anything surprising.

 

So, regarding your questions, for the first, I'd say, no, not feared, but looked down upon as most are anti-Semitic (http://www.algemeiner.com/2015/06/30/adl-poll-shows-more-than-half-of-western-european-muslims-harbor-antisemitic-beliefs/#), especially in Europe where they fuck up a lot of shit (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/sweden/7278532/Jews-leave-Swedish-city-after-sharp-rise-in-anti-Semitic-hate-crimes.html, http://www.investigativeproject.org/4850/study-exposes-the-ugly-depth-of-european-muslim, http://www.huffingtonpost.com/ben-barber/muslim-migrants-fan-europ_b_9395896.html). 

For the second, I'd say that, as expressed by my first paragraph, it needs to stop, that or Muslims need to stop being fucking idiots that don't adapt to Western culture. It's ridiculous how they demand respect after doing nothing but terrible things and expect to be helped by good people. I do not support Trump at all, Muslim immigration in the US is not a problem, and likely will not become one. Muslims in the US tend to adapt to US culture, so I don't have much of a problem with them, just with the insane ideology they identify as.

 

In conclusion, none of this was meant to offend you. You seem to be a US citizen, so you most likely aren't an awful Jew-hating homophobe that supports the stoning of everyone that doesn't follow your religious text.

 

Edit: I most likely don't agree with the views of most of the people that agree with me btw. This is the one thing I agree with conservatives on, the only reason that liberals tend not to agree is that they are being PC.

 

 

wait wait WHAT THE FUCK :@

 

first of all , its QURAN not Koran , and secondly rape is not permitted in any religion not even Islam . Also that site is fake , spreading fake stuff . This is not what Islam is bro . you literally need to get off your computer seat and get out in real world and present legit proof before saying these remarks .. bra you just spreading fake shit about muslims get your head straight 

 

and secondly do only muslim rape ?? you are meaning to say muslim have dick only ? bro lol ok ... how do you know 

 

i don't see how everything is blamed on muslims nowadays . its say pretty much down right biased-ness . Some what similar to what biasness what with black people in america back in time , but a bit enhanced form . 

 

sure there are some muslims who do bad stuff , but can't you show me other guys who do . everyone do bad stuff , why can't they ?? is every criminal muslim ?? everyone else is supreme ? first the black now muslims... who is next .....  for fuck sake stop classifying people based on religion , colour , caste , wealth ............ everyone is human .. but ye no one is stopping you with your biasness shit you got there do what you want . i would save my energy for something more productive then the argument and flame that you are starting to invoke . 

 

your standpoint on immigrants is like trump,  total bullshit and pointless . blame everything on single group of people ....ehh nice .... good luck with that ....... 

[iliad]

cogz

[Apeiron]

As a muslim Turk, I don't really understand some kind of religious groups. They don't want to live with liberal/open-minded people in the same community but they're still trying to be like them. What an ironic dilemma.

 

There is a fact about religious groups, If they are radical, you should fear and stay away. There is no religion of it. There are two sides in Turkey, maybe we can say that is theological schisma. One of them is non-radical Maturidi understanding which is most of people in Turkey belongs to it. This understanding of belief advises that mind comes first and A person can understand god with his own mind. There are logical explanations of dogmatic rules and other applications. Also There are some definitions about that This belief system can called Turkish Islamism in the world. But there is an other theological schisma called Ash'ari which is most contradictory and suspicious one. This understanding of belief advises that You should follow your Sheikh. You can't break the rules because there will be sharp results of it like leaving the religion results execution. You can't question the rules because it's forbidden. There are multiple forbiddens inside of it. And most of terrorist groups hiding behind of it.

 

Most of people confuses this schisma and blames all muslims. This is simply wrong. Also there is an other implicit understanding of belief called Isra'iliyyat/Israelites in demand in Turkey. It's also can be called Liberal Muslim movements whose in charge in Turkey right now IMO, These two terms cannot be considered separate these days.

 

I tried to explain what's going on in the muslim world. English is not my native language. If I made a mistake, Sorry for that.

[Ghosty.]

wait wait WHAT THE FUCK :@

 

first of all , its QURAN not Koran , and secondly rape is not permitted in any religion not even Islam . Also that site is fake , spreading fake stuff . This is not what Islam is bro . you literally need to get off your computer seat and get out in real world and present legit proof before saying these remarks .. bra you just spreading fake shit about muslims get your head straight

 

and secondly do only muslim rape ?? you are meaning to say muslim have dick only ? bro lol ok ... how do you know

 

i don't see how everything is blamed on muslims nowadays . its say pretty much down right biased-ness . Some what similar to what biasness what with black people in america back in time , but a bit enhanced form .

 

sure there are some muslims who do bad stuff , but can't you show me other guys who do . everyone do bad stuff , why can't they ?? is every criminal muslim ?? everyone else is supreme ? first the black now muslims... who is next ..... for fuck sake stop classifying people based on religion , colour , caste , wealth ............ everyone is human .. but ye no one is stopping you with your biasness shit you got there do what you want . i would save my energy for something more productive then the argument and flame that you are starting to invoke .

 

your standpoint on immigrants is like trump, total bullshit and pointless . blame everything on single group of people ....ehh nice .... good luck with that .......

 

Well, you've successfully made 5 paragraphs of complete bullshit.

 

For starters it is a translation, it can be spelled Koran, Quran, or Qran. If you 'd look at the fucking site I linked which used direct quotes from the KORAN, you'd know that Islam DOES permit the rape of women. The site is legit, if you would simply look at their sources, which they include for all of their information, you would realize that. Getting of of my computer and trying to find out this information would be pointless, I can't meet the same amount of people that these massive studies collect information from. I also never said only Muslims rape people, way to create a straw man dipshit. Not everything is blamed on Muslims, wtf are you talking about. In America mist crimes are committed be black people, so that kinda stuff is blamed on black people, in Sweden, most rape is committed by Muslim refugees, so rape is blamed on them. It's simple, a group does something, they get credit for it. The rest, from my understanding of that garbled text, is just you trying to create a strawman. So, please just fuck off.

[Ghosty.]

Oh, and here's the absolute kicker: Australia, you say?

• Australia: 24 million population. 51K sexual assualt cases in 2011-2012 (the last numbers wikipedia mentions)
• Germany: 84 million population. 47K sexual assualt cases (and that's including the eeeeeevil muslim immigrants)

*slow claps*

You've just shown that Australia has a problem, nothing more. It doesn't matter how many sexual assaults in Germany, what matters is the huge growth in them and who is doing them. Again, you've just ignored that the huge growth in Germany has been most apparent since the beginning of this year. Plus, the majority of the population in Germany is not Muslims.

[the_007_remix]

ghostly. dude shut the fuck up man those are fake 

[Hyperqube]

You've just shown that Australia has a problem, nothing more.

100% agreed.

 

It doesn't matter how many sexual assaults in Germany,

I do not agree. Perfect integration would mean the "same rate of sexual assaults" as germans, not "zero".

 

If you're setting an unrealistic standard for muslims, the problem doesn't lie with them - it lies with you.

 

what matters is the huge growth in them and who is doing them.

And this growth, as explained, is normal.

 

Sigh ... OK, lets dumb it down for a second. An analogy. Suppose

• we consider it the integrated standard that 1 in 10 people is an ecoterrorist

  (this - in the analogy - is the german per capita rate rate)

• we have a group of 10 people, and the group contains 5 vegans and 5 meat-eaters, as is considered normal

  (this represents the normal 50/50 male female population, vegan representing the man)

• all ecoterrorists are vegan

  (this is a grose simplification of most rapes being done by male)

• from (1) and (2) that means we'll have 1 eco terrorist
• from (1) & (3) we know we can remove meat eaters from the equasion, which means, (2) and (4) tell us the norm is actually 1 eco terrorist per 5 vegans

  .

• now we add 5 more vegans to the equasion

  (this is a simplificaion of the mostly male immigrants)

• these people are completely integrated and follow the same norms as our native population

  (we make this assumption to see how numbers would react to perfectly integrated individuals)

• from (6) & (5) & (7), we we know there is 1 eco terrorist in them
• (2) & (6) tell us we now have a population of 15, and (4) & (8) tell us we have now 2 eco terrorists
• (1) and (9) tell us, that dispite (7) being perfectly integrated, our eco terrorism increased from 10% to 13% (1/10 to 2/15)

 

I'm not ignoring that there have been more sexual assualts. But if you add more males, there will be more male related crimes (both in absolutes and per capita). That's not a sign that they are "bad people" compared to the natives - it's a mathematical truth.

 

 

 

You wanna complain that if you increase population, crime increases? Go right ahead - but while you're advocating against immigration, note the biggest source of population (and thus the biggest source of crime) is childbirth. The best way to reduce crime (in abolute numbers) is a strickt birthcontrol project. (and before you're trying to play the morality card on that, stopping refugees drops them back into a warzone. that's not moral either)

 

You wanna complain that they integrated more males, and thus male related crime rose disproporitionate? Well, you could just integrate more females and then you're happy and they're happy. Everybody wins

 

You wanna complain math sucks? With millions before you with the same complaint, it would seem math doesn't care.

 

You wanna complain about muslims because you got a list of bad things done by muslims? Compare it to a list of bad things done by non-mulsims.

 

[the_007_remix]

Well, you've successfully made 5 paragraphs of complete bullshit.

 

For starters it is a translation, it can be spelled Koran, Quran, or Qran. If you 'd look at the fucking site I linked which used direct quotes from the KORAN, you'd know that Islam DOES permit the rape of women. The site is legit, if you would simply look at their sources, which they include for all of their information, you would realize that. Getting of of my computer and trying to find out this information would be pointless, I can't meet the same amount of people that these massive studies collect information from. I also never said only Muslims rape people, way to create a straw man dipshit. Not everything is blamed on Muslims, wtf are you talking about. In America mist crimes are committed be black people, so that kinda stuff is blamed on black people, in Sweden, most rape is committed by Muslim refugees, so rape is blamed on them. It's simple, a group does something, they get credit for it. The rest, from my understanding of that garbled text, is just you trying to create a strawman. So, please just fuck off.

that site https://www.thereligionofpeace.com/pages/muhammad/rape.aspx 

specifically this page refered ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

 

give incomplete information 

 

the Surah 4 verse 24 transaltion given is incomplete here .... it is only a small extract 

 

originally Quran is in arabic it is translated into english and various other languages . The core meaning remain same but for understanding sake translators use different words of-course as every human is a bit different then the other  ... the extract mention in the hypocritical site of yours is ONLY i repeat ONLY small extract of Pickthall (who is he ? se here ...https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marmaduke_Pickthall) . 

 

HERE IS THE COMPLETE TRANSLATION (reference http://corpus.quran.com/translation.jsp?chapter=4&verse=24)

 

"" And all married women (are forbidden unto you) save those (captives) whom your right hands possess. It is a decree of Allah for you. Lawful unto you are all beyond those mentioned, so that ye seek them with your wealth in honest wedlock, not debauchery. And those of whom ye seek content (by marrying them), give unto them their portions as a duty. And there is no sin for you in what ye do by mutual agreement after the duty (hath been done). Lo! Allah is ever Knower, Wise."""

 

THE SITE YOU MENTION ONLY PICKS SPECIFIC WORDS TO SPREAD FAKE SHIT IT PICKS ONLY THE BELOW UNDERLINED WORDS

 

"" And all married women (are forbidden unto you) save those (captives) whom your right hands possess. It is a decree of Allah for you. Lawful unto you are all beyond those mentioned, so that ye seek them with your wealth in honest wedlock, not debauchery. And those of whom ye seek content (by marrying them), give unto them their portions as a duty. And there is no sin for you in what ye do by mutual agreement after the duty (hath been done). Lo! Allah is ever Knower, Wise."""

 

WHAT DOES IT MEANS ??

well you are skipping 1-23 verse and conversating on verse no#24 , and infact not even whole verser #24 but only small phrase init 

 

here is a easy to understand explaination from another translator :-

 

"" Also (forbidden are) women already married, except those (captives and slaves) whom your right hands possess. Thus has Allah ordained for you. All others are lawful, provided you seek (them in marriage) with Mahr (bridal money given by the husband to his wife at the time of marriage) from your property, desiring chastity, not committing illegal sexual intercourse, so with those of whom you have enjoyed sexual relations, give them their Mahr as prescribed; but if after a Mahr is prescribed, you agree mutually (to give more), there is no sin on you. Surely, Allah is Ever All­Knowing, All­Wise. ""

 

 

let me break it down , below mentioned it a bit expansion of translation by me for your understanding :-

 

""  (forbidden are) women already married   "" you cant marry women that are already married

"" except those (captives and slaves) whom your right hands possess. "" but you can marry slave or captives 

 "" Thus has Allah ordained for you.  ""this is what ALLAH / GOD commands

"" All others are lawful, provided  ""all other women except already married ones are lawful PROVIDED !!! that (there are some conditions)

 

what conditions ?? read further

 

"" provided you seek (them in marriage) "" formally marry them , seek to marry them = ask them if they want to get married and marry them with their concent 

+

"" with Mahr (bridal money given by the husband to his wife at the time of marriage) "" its something given at time of marrige , what is it ? read a bit more you are almost there 

 + 

"" from your property, desiring chastity, not committing illegal sexual intercourse, so with those of whom you have enjoyed sexual relations, give them their Mahr as prescribed;  "" something that is given at time of marrige should also be pure you see , it should be part of your property also illegal intercourse is not permitted which is nowadays know as rape . also here it says that you should give Mahr at time of marrige so as prescribed 

 

and further it says 

 

 "" but if after a Mahr is prescribed, you agree mutually (to give more), there is no sin on you. Surely, Allah is Ever All­Knowing, All­Wise. "" even if mahr , the amount to be paid at marrige is decided , it may be change upon mutual agreement 

 

 

.................................................................................................................................................................................................x

 

i am not religious scholar so i can't really give you accurate stuff here but i am a muslim and i reserve all right to speak when something wrong is spoken  , please dont spread fake shit about my religion . yes i know some of muslims are bad , but don't mean you become hypothtically nig nog and blame every muslim or black guy or spanish or any other human you see . seek complete source of information .

 

you guys read in text book and internet hitler was bad guy . and make puns about him 

BUT have you ever try to research about it ???

 

you belive everything literally even if its half the truth do some reserch !!! 

 

i don't blame you or the site maker that you refered tbh it is also possible you guys don't even know complete translation . but do research ... GO OUT, BUY QURAN , READ IT ... 

[Gren]

wait wait WHAT THE FUCK :@

 

first of all , its QURAN not Koran , and secondly rape is not permitted in any religion not even Islam . Also that site is fake , spreading fake stuff . This is not what Islam is bro . you literally need to get off your computer seat and get out in real world and present legit proof before saying these remarks .. bra you just spreading fake shit about muslims get your head straight 

 

and secondly do only muslim rape ?? you are meaning to say muslim have dick only ? bro lol ok ... how do you know 

 

i don't see how everything is blamed on muslims nowadays . its say pretty much down right biased-ness . Some what similar to what biasness what with black people in america back in time , but a bit enhanced form . 

 

sure there are some muslims who do bad stuff , but can't you show me other guys who do . everyone do bad stuff , why can't they ?? is every criminal muslim ?? everyone else is supreme ? first the black now muslims... who is next .....  for fuck sake stop classifying people based on religion , colour , caste , wealth ............ everyone is human .. but ye no one is stopping you with your biasness shit you got there do what you want . i would save my energy for something more productive then the argument and flame that you are starting to invoke . 

 

your standpoint on immigrants is like trump,  total bullshit and pointless . blame everything on single group of people ....ehh nice .... good luck with that ....... 

 

 

ghostly. dude shut the fuck up man those are fake 

 

You come to these forums, post no facts, no sources, simply dismissing his arguments on the grounds that they are (according to you) bigoted.  Why don't you prove their fake?  Why don't you explain to us what the Koran outlines in regard to the treatment of Kafirs?  Why don't you explain to us how women are treated in countries that have Sharia law?  

 

"Bro, they're fake, you're a bigot" isn't an argument, it just makes you look extremely ignorant and uninformed.  

 

EDIT: Well look at that, while I typed this, you posted something with some actual content.  Certainly a step up form your first two posts.

[the_007_remix]

You come to these forums, post no facts, no sources, simply dismissing his arguments on the grounds that they are (according to you) bigoted.  Why don't you prove their fake?  Why don't you explain to us what the Koran outlines in regard to the treatment of Kafirs?  Why don't you explain to us how women are treated in countries that have Sharia law?  

 

"Bro, they're fake, you're a bigot" isn't an argument, it just makes you look extremely ignorant and uninformed.  

 

EDIT: Well look at that, while I typed this, you posted something with some actual content.  Certainly a step up form your first two posts.

yes please read what i posted also read the last paragraph after the dotted line ending with x (something like this ..........x)

explained surah 4 verse 24 as much as i could i am not a scholar , i am not very very well versed but i am not illiterate  

[Teeny Tiny Cat]

this thread is bizarre. i work with a bunch of muslims. they ate a bunch of tasty food for eid. it was not at all political and nobody was upset or even all that interested.

 

let's try to keep it civil all.

[the_007_remix]

this thread is bizarre. i work with a bunch of muslims. they ate a bunch of tasty food for eid. it was not at all political and nobody was upset or even all that interested.

well a guy comes along named ghostly , provide incomplete information about my religion . I have all right to defend and provide complete information .  

althou i am not religions scholar but i can still provide some detail information after seeking it for actual sources The Quran itself that is ... i do not mean to invoke flame only spreading the knowledge  

 

this thread is getting out of hands totally off the topic for sure 

[Svode]

well a guy comes along named ghostly , provide incomplete information about my religion . I have all right to defend and provide complete information .  

althou i am not religions scholar but i can still provide some detail information after seeking it for actual sources The Quran itself that is ... i do not mean to invoke flame only spreading the knowledge  

 

this thread is getting out of hands totally off the topic for sure 

 

I definatly agree. Lets try to keep it on topic.

[Gren]

 

this thread is getting out of hands totally off the topic for sure 

 

 

I definatly agree. Lets try to keep it on topic.

 

I don't think the thread is getting off topic.  Here are the poll questions: 

 

 

We are asked how we feel about Muslims and Muslim Immigrants.  That's where we started, the topic moved to increases in sexual assault crimes in Europe, which is a sub topic of the immigration crisis we're being polled on.  A legitimate digression in relation to the original topic. 

 

One thing that hasn't been brought up at all is ethnicity and socioeconomic demographics.  I'm glad there are a few Muslims here, I hope they will give their perspective.  Simply labeling the immigration crisis as "Muslim" is too general.  True, since we're talking about immigrants who are mainly from North Africa and the Middle East, we are speaking about Muslims (most likely at least), but two key components are country of origin and socioeconomic status. 

 

Roughly 2/3s of immigrants who've been streaming into Europe during the last 1.5 years are illiterate in their own language.  Only about 10% hold the equivalence of a college degree.  This is not representative of the Muslim world.  As a matter of fact, it's not even representative of the general Syrian or Iraqi population.  So what could this possibly mean?  It means that the majority of the immigrants making their way to Europe now are people who already belonged into the classes of society we would objectively call 'poor' and 'uneducated' to begin with.  How do you think these people will behave in Western free societies like Germany, Denmark or France?  Keep in mind that in order to lead any sort of a life even remotely resembling success, they will need to have a decent command of the native language, something which they weren't even able to accomplish in their own mother tongue.  

 

In what segment of society does most violent crime occur? In the poor, underprivileged and uneducated segments.  So now you're getting an influx of people, the majority of which belong exactly into that stratum of society.  What do you think will happen?  Do you think they will all of a sudden turn into productive members of society or do you think they will just keep fucking shit up, just like they did before?  So now that they are thrown into a foreign country, with a foreign language, you think they will do better than they did at home?  Believing they will is simply absurd and completely disconnected from any evidence we have on social behaviour.

 

It's not about Muslims.  It's about the question 'who exactly are you accepting into your society?'  And the answer to that unfortunately - as it pertains to the migrant crisis - is predominantly poor and uneducated individuals who couldn't play a productive role in their native cultures, but for some reasons we now assume that they will magically assimilate and turn into good little EU citizens who understand and practice the principles of freedom of speech, markets, etc. ...without which this whole 'Western Society' thing couldn't have ever happened in the first place.  

 

So now finally back to rape.  We don't know the true increase of sexual assaults.  In fact,  we've never know the true number sexual assaults ever, as sexual assaults are notoriously under reported, and convictions are extremely rare.  Add to that the fact that the media in Europe is actively being discouraged to reveal race and/or ethnicity of attackers and you end up with an extremely blurry picture.  Nonetheless, we know that there has been an increase (check the appendix: http://www.gatestoneinstitute.org/7557/germany-rape-migrants-crisis). 

 

Now please imagine if you were the father of one of the 11 year old girls who were molested in a public swimming pool by refugees.  Imagine being told by your government:

 

"So, we are going to let in 1.5 million people.  We're not going to screen them or anything, they're refugees and we feel bad, so we're just going to let them in.  As a result unfortunately, your daughter will get groped in a public swimming pool,  a traumatic memory which she will carry with her for the rest of her life.  Do you vote 'yes' to letting in 1.5 million immigrants?"

 

Would anybody honestly answer 'yes' to that?  

 

Remember, rape - and violent crime in general - has been decreasing in Western society (well, until lately at least) for decades.  A reversal of these trends is an assault to everything we've been fighting for, and a civil war in another part of the world (if you want to find those who are truly responsible, take the US government to the Hague, Bush, Blair and all of their friends are the war criminals, not us) is not sufficient reason to derail this entire process.  

[Apeiron]

I don't think the thread is getting off topic.  Here are the poll questions: 

 

 

We are asked how we feel about Muslims and Muslim Immigrants.  That's where we started, the topic moved to increases in sexual assault crimes in Europe, which is a sub topic of the immigration crisis we're being polled on.  A legitimate digression in relation to the original topic. 

 

One thing that hasn't been brought up at all is ethnicity and socioeconomic demographics.  I'm glad there are a few Muslims here, I hope they will give their perspective.  Simply labeling the immigration crisis as "Muslim" is too general.  True, since we're talking about immigrants who are mainly from North Africa and the Middle East, we are speaking about Muslims (most likely at least), but two key components are country of origin and socioeconomic status. 

 

Roughly 2/3s of immigrants who've been streaming into Europe during the last 1.5 years are illiterate in their own language.  Only about 10% hold the equivalence of a college degree.  This is not representative of the Muslim world.  As a matter of fact, it's not even representative of the general Syrian or Iraqi population.  So what could this possibly mean?  It means that the majority of the immigrants making their way to Europe now are people who already belonged into the classes of society we would objectively call 'poor' and 'uneducated' to begin with.  How do you think these people will behave in Western free societies like Germany, Denmark or France?  Keep in mind that in order to lead any sort of a life even remotely resembling success, they will need to have a decent command of the native language, something which they weren't even able to accomplish in their own mother tongue.  

 

In what segment of society does most violent crime occur? In the poor, underprivileged and uneducated segments.  So now you're getting an influx of people, the majority of which belong exactly into that stratum of society.  What do you think will happen?  Do you think they will all of a sudden turn into productive members of society or do you think they will just keep fucking shit up, just like they did before?  So now that they are thrown into a foreign country, with a foreign language, you think they will do better than they did at home?  Believing they will is simply absurd and completely disconnected from any evidence we have on social behaviour.

 

It's not about Muslims.  It's about the question 'who exactly are you accepting into your society?'  And the answer to that unfortunately - as it pertains to the migrant crisis - is predominantly poor and uneducated individuals who couldn't play a productive role in their native cultures, but for some reasons we now assume that they will magically assimilate and turn into good little EU citizens who understand and practice the principles of freedom of speech, markets, etc. ...without which this whole 'Western Society' thing couldn't have ever happened in the first place.  

 

So now finally back to rape.  We don't know the true increase of sexual assaults.  In fact,  we've never know the true number sexual assaults ever, as sexual assaults are notoriously under reported, and convictions are extremely rare.  Add to that the fact that the media in Europe is actively being discouraged to reveal race and/or ethnicity of attackers and you end up with an extremely blurry picture.  Nonetheless, we know that there has been an increase (check the appendix: http://www.gatestoneinstitute.org/7557/germany-rape-migrants-crisis). 

 

Now please imagine if you were the father of one of the 11 year old girls who were molested in a public swimming pool by refugees.  Imagine being told by your government:

 

"So, we are going to let in 1.5 million people.  We're not going to screen them or anything, they're refugees and we feel bad, so we're just going to let them in.  As a result unfortunately, your daughter will get groped in a public swimming pool,  a traumatic memory which she will carry with her for the rest of her life.  Do you vote 'yes' to letting in 1.5 million immigrants?"

 

Would anybody honestly answer 'yes' to that?  

 

Remember, rape - and violent crime in general - has been decreasing in Western society (well, until lately at least) for decades.  A reversal of these trends is an assault to everything we've been fighting for, and a civil war in another part of the world (if you want to find those who are truly responsible, take the US government to the Hague, Bush, Blair and all of their friends are the war criminals, not us) is not sufficient reason to derail this entire process.  

 

I think this one is the best answer to this topic.

 

It's not about religion.

 

Now they started to bullying us, harassing us and killing us in the society. And our brilliant gov wants to give citizenship to them. They're already operating thier shops with some kind of language which we can't read. And now gov trying to give civil servant jobs even with less requirements special exam. (Turkish citizens have to get top score from KPSS exam before get a job like this. (at least 75/100))

 

This flow of immigration should definitely come to an end.

[the_007_remix]

I don't think the thread is getting off topic.  Here are the poll questions: 

 

 

We are asked how we feel about Muslims and Muslim Immigrants.  That's where we started, the topic moved to increases in sexual assault crimes in Europe, which is a sub topic of the immigration crisis we're being polled on.  A legitimate digression in relation to the original topic. 

 

One thing that hasn't been brought up at all is ethnicity and socioeconomic demographics.  I'm glad there are a few Muslims here, I hope they will give their perspective.  Simply labeling the immigration crisis as "Muslim" is too general.  True, since we're talking about immigrants who are mainly from North Africa and the Middle East, we are speaking about Muslims (most likely at least), but two key components are country of origin and socioeconomic status. 

 

Roughly 2/3s of immigrants who've been streaming into Europe during the last 1.5 years are illiterate in their own language.  Only about 10% hold the equivalence of a college degree.  This is not representative of the Muslim world.  As a matter of fact, it's not even representative of the general Syrian or Iraqi population.  So what could this possibly mean?  It means that the majority of the immigrants making their way to Europe now are people who already belonged into the classes of society we would objectively call 'poor' and 'uneducated' to begin with.  How do you think these people will behave in Western free societies like Germany, Denmark or France?  Keep in mind that in order to lead any sort of a life even remotely resembling success, they will need to have a decent command of the native language, something which they weren't even able to accomplish in their own mother tongue.  

 

In what segment of society does most violent crime occur? In the poor, underprivileged and uneducated segments.  So now you're getting an influx of people, the majority of which belong exactly into that stratum of society.  What do you think will happen?  Do you think they will all of a sudden turn into productive members of society or do you think they will just keep fucking shit up, just like they did before?  So now that they are thrown into a foreign country, with a foreign language, you think they will do better than they did at home?  Believing they will is simply absurd and completely disconnected from any evidence we have on social behaviour.

 

It's not about Muslims.  It's about the question 'who exactly are you accepting into your society?'  And the answer to that unfortunately - as it pertains to the migrant crisis - is predominantly poor and uneducated individuals who couldn't play a productive role in their native cultures, but for some reasons we now assume that they will magically assimilate and turn into good little EU citizens who understand and practice the principles of freedom of speech, markets, etc. ...without which this whole 'Western Society' thing couldn't have ever happened in the first place.  

 

So now finally back to rape.  We don't know the true increase of sexual assaults.  In fact,  we've never know the true number sexual assaults ever, as sexual assaults are notoriously under reported, and convictions are extremely rare.  Add to that the fact that the media in Europe is actively being discouraged to reveal race and/or ethnicity of attackers and you end up with an extremely blurry picture.  Nonetheless, we know that there has been an increase (check the appendix: http://www.gatestoneinstitute.org/7557/germany-rape-migrants-crisis). 

 

Now please imagine if you were the father of one of the 11 year old girls who were molested in a public swimming pool by refugees.  Imagine being told by your government:

 

"So, we are going to let in 1.5 million people.  We're not going to screen them or anything, they're refugees and we feel bad, so we're just going to let them in.  As a result unfortunately, your daughter will get groped in a public swimming pool,  a traumatic memory which she will carry with her for the rest of her life.  Do you vote 'yes' to letting in 1.5 million immigrants?"

 

Would anybody honestly answer 'yes' to that?  

 

Remember, rape - and violent crime in general - has been decreasing in Western society (well, until lately at least) for decades.  A reversal of these trends is an assault to everything we've been fighting for, and a civil war in another part of the world (if you want to find those who are truly responsible, take the US government to the Hague, Bush, Blair and all of their friends are the war criminals, not us) is not sufficient reason to derail this entire process.  

 

"" We are asked how we feel about Muslims and Muslim Immigrants.  That's where we started, the topic moved to increases in sexual assault crimes in Europe, which is a sub topic of the immigration crisis we're being polled on.  A legitimate digression in relation to the original topic.  "" 

 

ye but then again comes along a user who claims rape is allowed in my religion , who does not even belong to my religion nor has knowledge there off and you let him speak ....... freedom of speech ye ok .... my ass .... rape by immigrants was ok part of sub topic .... but only muslim raping ?? muslim religion allows rape ?? what in the fuck :@

 

"" One thing that hasn't been brought up at all is ethnicity and socioeconomic demographics.  I'm glad there are a few Muslims here, I hope they will give their perspective.  Simply labeling the immigration crisis as "Muslim" is too general.  True, since we're talking about immigrants who are mainly from North Africa and the Middle East, we are speaking about Muslims (most likely at least), but two key components are country of origin and socioeconomic status. "" 

 

ye we can share our prespective if you treat us with equal respect , atlest respect our religion . what did religion did to you ? muslim is a guy who belong to religion islam , its jsut a classification religion specific ... 

 

.""  True, since we're talking about immigrants who are mainly from North Africa and the Middle East, we are speaking about Muslims (most likely at least), but two key components are country of origin and socioeconomic status. "" 

 

how you are sure that 99%-80% imigrants are muslims ?? give me legit evidence .... 

 

""Roughly 2/3s of immigrants who've been streaming into Europe during the last 1.5 years are illiterate in their own language.  Only about 10% hold the equivalence of a college degree. ""

 

that is your country or the country allowing immigrants fault .. 

 

  "" This is not representative of the Muslim world.  As a matter of fact, it's not even representative of the general Syrian or Iraqi population.  So what could this possibly mean?  It means that the majority of the immigrants making their way to Europe now are people who already belonged into the classes of society we would objectively call 'poor' and 'uneducated' to begin with ""

 

finally you agree to some point ... but how do they come into euro when they are poor or uneducated ?? did they walk all the way to your country .... yee or maybe they climb on top of birds and just jumped into your country ..... 

 

""how do you think these people will behave in Western free societies like Germany, Denmark or France?  Keep in mind that in order to lead any sort of a life even remotely resembling success, they will need to have a decent command of the native language, something which they weren't even able to accomplish in their own mother tongue.  ""

 

then again its your fault to allow nubs into your country ... and dont even get me started on free society ..... start another thread on that meet you there

 

"" It's not about Muslims.  It's about the question 'who exactly are you accepting into your society?'  And the answer to that unfortunately - as it pertains to the migrant crisis - is predominantly poor and uneducated individuals who couldn't play a productive role in their native cultures, but for some reasons we now assume that they will magically assimilate and turn into good little EU citizens who understand and practice the principles of freedom of speech, markets, etc. ...without which this whole 'Western Society' thing couldn't have ever happened in the first place.  "" 

 

the topic is about EID AND MUSLIM SOCIETY not illetrate immigrants in EU .... stick to topic bro ... seems like the seperation of brit has influenced you alot .... booohooo stick to topic bro 

 

""In what segment of society does most violent crime occur? In the poor, underprivileged and uneducated segments.  So now you're getting an influx of people, the majority of which belong exactly into that stratum of society.  What do you think will happen?  Do you think they will all of a sudden turn into productive members of society or do you think they will just keep fucking shit up, just like they did before?  ""

 

oh so crime does not happen in literate and rich guy society .....ehhhh yeah right ... blame everything on the poor guys ... GG bro 

 

""So now that they are thrown into a foreign country, with a foreign language, you think they will do better than they did at home?  Believing they will is simply absurd and completely disconnected from any evidence we have on social behaviour.""

 

thrown into foreign society ??? no bro your country allowed them to come 

 

"" So now finally back to rape.  We don't know the true increase of sexual assaults. ""

 

why can not this be linked with dressing of women and men  ? the freedom ? freedom to do anything with anyone at any time , with concent of both parties ofc .... freedom of drugs , alchole , porn etc etc etc ... but really ? what did it lead too ? ... not talking this from religions prespective .... see this as human prespective ... you have harmones , you have the tools , human body was built that way ..... how will you react to barley clothed women / men (i dont know what your preference is ) ... but then again ..... you want a human naked infront of another human and you want the human seeing other human naked to control his body and everything ?? ... to some point it maybe controllable but really ?? you tell me ?? 

 

you still think you dont know true reason for increase in sexual assults and stuff ....  dont see this as religions prespective or immigrants even .... maybe its the immigirants women or men also getting raped ... this can be also vice versa ... 

 

"" We don't know the true increase of sexual assaults.  In fact,  we've never know the true number sexual assaults ever, as sexual assaults are notoriously under reported, and convictions are extremely rare.  Add to that the fact that the media in Europe is actively being discouraged to reveal race and/or ethnicity of attackers and you end up with an extremely blurry picture.  Nonetheless, we know that there has been an increase (check the appendix: http://www.gatestone...rants-crisis).  ""

 

race + ethnicity + religion = should not ever effect how you view people .... or in this case criminals 

 

Now please imagine if you were the father of one of the 11 year old girls who were molested in a public swimming pool by refugees.  Imagine being told by your government:

 

"So, we are going to let in 1.5 million people.  We're not going to screen them or anything, they're refugees and we feel bad, so we're just going to let them in.  As a result unfortunately, your daughter will get groped in a public swimming pool,  a traumatic memory which she will carry with her for the rest of her life.  Do you vote 'yes' to letting in 1.5 million immigrants?"

 

i will kill the goverment if that happen i understand the pain and frustration ... well then again its whose fault ? GOVERNMENT ....... whose government is it ? YOURS .......whose responsibility is to control or atlest direct or chose good and decent government ? YOURS ... is it run by muslims ? ..... STICK TO THE TOPIC :@  you are alot alot alot far from topic .... 

 

I demand this topic renamed to  TO ILLEGAL IMMIGRANTS or ILLUSTRATE IMIIGIRANTS

 

 

Would anybody honestly answer 'yes' to that?  

 

fuck no who would ? id say its your government fault bro .... its your choice to ramble on forums of videogames or take action .... 

 

Remember, rape - and violent crime in general - has been decreasing in Western society (well, until lately at least) for decades.  

 

not really no ... you can gurantee this ?? 

 

A reversal of these trends is an assault to everything we've been fighting for, and a civil war in another part of the world (if you want to find those who are truly responsible, take the US government to the Hague, Bush, Blair and all of their friends are the war criminals, not us) is not sufficient reason to derail this entire process.  

 

US government ... ye .... STICK TO THE TOPIC !!!!! 

Would anybody honestly answer 'yes' to that?  

 

Remember, rape - and violent crime in general - has been decreasing in Western society (well, until lately at least) for decades.  A reversal of these trends is an assault to everything we've been fighting for, and a civil war in another part of the world (if you want to find those who are truly responsible, take the US government to the Hague, Bush, Blair and all of their friends are the war criminals, not us) is not sufficient reason to derail this entire process.  

[the_007_remix]

I think this one is the best answer to this topic.

 

It's not about religion.

 

Now they started to bullying us, harassing us and killing us in the society. And our brilliant gov wants to give citizenship to them. They're already operating thier shops with some kind of language which we can't read. And now gov trying to give civil servant jobs even with less requirements special exam. (Turkish citizens have to get top score from KPSS exam before get a job like this. (at least 75/100))

 

This flow of immigration should definitely come to an end.

 

this is good step by your government . now literate immigrants would stay ... but then again allowing immigrants without screening is your government fault ... but i highly doubt that your gov let them without screening and stuff ... i dont really belive your guys claims then again YOU guys should have taken steps but you guys decided to ramble on forums ... 

 

the topic is 

Eid And The Muslim Community.

 

hello ? some one please change topic name 

the topic name does not correspond with discussion its very mis-leading 

[Hyperqube]

I don't think the thread is getting off topic

...

We are asked how we feel about Muslims and Muslim Immigrants.  

... 

Simply labeling the immigration crisis as "Muslim" is too general.

...

It's not about Muslims. It's about the question 'who exactly are you accepting into your society?'

LOL.

 

With the amount of controversy surrounding Muslims in the media, this holiday may be a significant mark on the way people view Muslims and the Muslim community. What do you theorize will happen during Eid to impact the Islamic community?

This thread is obviously about Muslims and Muslim Immigrants. So, it's extremely ironic you start of by saying your don't think this is going off topic, and then make an argument how it's not about muslims.

 

... even to the point, you're telling the OP what is and isn't topic is. Like he wouldn't know

 

So now finally back to rape. We don't know the true increase of sexual assaults. In fact, we've never know the true number sexual assaults ever, as sexual assaults are notoriously under reported, and convictions are extremely rare.

Appeal to consequences 101: "I don't like these numbers, so the guys who collect statisitcs about crime and such for a living obviously don't know what they are doing"

 

But hey, if we don't know ... how do you know they increased at all? Maybe with the migrant crisis, people simply started reporting sexaul assualt more.

 

Logic 101: You can't argue "we don't know, so I posit my oppinion as fact"

[the_007_remix]

LOL.

 

With the amount of controversy surrounding Muslims in the media, this holiday may be a significant mark on the way people view Muslims and the Muslim community. What do you theorize will happen during Eid to impact the Islamic community?

This thread is obviously about Muslims and Muslim Immigrants. So, it's extremely ironic you start of by saying your don't think this is going off topic, and then make an argument how it's not about muslims.

 

... even to the point, you're telling the OP what is and isn't topic is. Like he wouldn't know

he dont even know what he is saying , i agree .... topic name should change as well its very mis-leading ... eid is gone ... this topic is not really inclined towards eid in first place ... 

[Tats]

I like trolls who say it is off-topic because they disagree with what others say.

 

This topic is about the feelings/opinions that people have on Islam, muslims and immigrants and how can Eid change it or not.

I personally agree with most of Gren's arguments which I find relevant and on-topic. So let's focus on debating rather than doing the job of moderators.

[the_007_remix]

I like trolls who say it is off-topic because they disagree with what others say.

 

This topic is about the feelings/opinions that people have on Islam, muslims and immigrants and how can Eid change it or not.

I personally agree with most of Gren's arguments which I find relevant and on-topic. So let's focus on debating rather than doing the job of moderators.

troll my ass bro read what i write , the man you are supporting has no legit evidence .... 

 

 

he dont even know what he is saying nor you .... no legit evidence you guys provide  .... topic name should change as well its very mis-leading ... eid is gone ... this topic is not really inclined towards eid in first place ... 

 

topic name does not correspond to the discussion within , it does not even correspond to the poll within .... this is really not a place to discuss religion ... you are free to express immigrants , may it so be muslim immigrants specifically even thou it maybe biased .... not ever muslim is good or perfect ,

WE ARE HUMANS TOO 

every other is different ... so dont judge the whole community with wrong / incompetent respresntative .... 

i responded to gren view , read it , prove me if i am wrong .... prove me all bad is done by muslim ... 

i will kill myself if you are able to prove all bad is done by and only muslims 

 

We disagree because you DO NOT HAVE LEGIT PROOF 

 

ITS YOUR GOVERNEMENT incompetence and illiteracy THAT THEY allowed bad immigrants to enter your state ... DO NOT BLAME THE WHOLE MUSLIM COMMUNITY FOR IT for your nub government 

 

stop rambling on forum , go out , protest , claim your rights , take control of your government ... do something if you don't like what is happening ..... seeek more info do research .... maybe you dont have knowledge yourself 

 

but noo you waste energy on tf2 and forums ... such a waste of life as so speaking if you aren't doing anything productive ... but that is your choice....

 

come to think of it why am i wasting my energy on your guys , you guys are soooo much mis-informed by your government even let alone you think you are capable to expressing legit view on a specific caste / religion / group of people ...