Please help me ban these idiots

[STOUT SHAKO FOR 2 REFINED]

So, in short: two guys have created a listing on steam community market - a Killstreak Spruce Deuce Scattergun and put the price of 340$ USD. Now they are scamming people and exchanging this price manipulated scattergun for items that are worth a lot. Can they get banned or marked for this?

Here are people that own these: 

http://backpack.tf/u/76561198203383222 (This guy owns one right now)
http://backpack.tf/profiles/76561198136023944?time=1464307200 (This dude owned two of those, gave one after to a guy above)
http://backpack.tf/profiles/76561198066743294 (Here's where the second scattergun went)
http://backpack.tf/profiles/76561198132956966 (The creator of the idea, he put the price up)
If they can get banned or at least marked, where can I ask for help?

[Pearly Gates]

Idk man, but if anyone is retarded enough to believe these guys and unsold market listings he deserves getting 'scammed'/sharked.

[ThePickleCat]

A similar thing is also happening with Killstreak Dressed to Kill Sniper Rifles. Just not quite as high. Most people should realize that a Civilian Grade Skin isn't worth that much....

[77777777777777777777777777]

Idk man, but if anyone is retarded enough to believe these guys and unsold market listings he deserves getting 'scammed'/sharked.

 

It's not about that at all, you're missing the point

It's about deceitful trading, profiteering based off other people's ignorance and deception. What are we as a trading community if we tolerate these methods? You can't furthermore just barge in and say they deserve it, it's very much like sharking. It's a grey area.

[Pearly Gates]

It is sharking.

And I know it's not good. Maybe bp.tf mods will ban these guys - but some people (sharked users who are sharked with this method) just gotta learn it the hard way...

[Forgivable]

im wondering if anybody would be stupid enough to fall for this

[=TNW= Maximus™]

I've seen this with a pro ks l'etranger.. I don't think it's ok to do, but people shouldn't fall for things like this

 

Things that seem to be too good, generally are.

[_AnOmaLitY_fAllS_]

Nice idea

[Mengh.]

Happens all the time in the Dota2 economy. Of course, common sense,

listing price =/= price it sold at

[funkle]

if people cant do their own due diligence, they probably deserve to get scammed. Sharking is a retarded rule.

[77777777777777777777777777]

if people cant do their own due diligence, they probably deserve to get scammed. Sharking is a retarded rule.

 

The only thing's that "retarded" here is your narrow perspective

Say sharking rules got abolished starting tomorrow. What do you think would happen? The trading community would devolve into a bunch of vipers who prey on other people's weaknesses, ignorance, and go out of their way to deceive them. Do you think things would end at sharking? After all, if we're cancelling every rule we have on sharking, we're allowing trickery and fooling other people. Scamming is very much like that, so it would be very hypocritical of everyone to allow sharking but not scamming. People would start to scam, and there's nothing we could do about it.

There are rules for very good reasons, just because YOU do not understand them or agree with them doesn't mean they're "retarded".

[polar]

http://forums.backpack.tf/index.php?/topic/29027-guide-for-background-checks/&do=findComment&comment=321062

 

If you can provide screenshots of them intentionally misleading other users by misrepresenting item values, then at the very least it deserves a -trust and I will consider giving a ban.

[Mag!cGuy]

Cortona, I have sad news for you: the trading community is already like that. The amount of people who highball their hats, lowball yours, prey for soon-to-be all classes, invoke bp.tf price when it suits them and ignore it when it doesn't, is beyond imagination.

 

When I started trading I really was like "It's all a game, sometimes you win, sometimes you lose, deal with it.". But when I happened to really trick someone into a deal that was really favoring me, I just didn't feel right. To the point, today, that I always tell the truth about my own hats, and say straight forward "you're gonna have to overpay, as a compensation for me not having pure, so, value-wise, you are not gaining anything". Same thing when I quickbuy. It's not about profit in itself that is bad, but how you make it. It's something I realized in my trading journey, and it so happens I'm growing even faster now that I'm being as "clean" as possible, so it IS possible.

 

The problem is that almost no one understands that, and that's why you get comments like the ones you could see in this thread. As ridiculous as this scam is to the fairly experienced traders, it can really work with ones who are not familiar with how SCM works. Because they are not familiar with it, does not mean they are stupid, and that they should be "punished" for it. Only these pathetic scammers should be.

[♠Derpeh♤]

Only these pathetic scammers should be.

 

I'm fairly certain why people care calling it "stupid" is because if a buyer is going to down 300usd+ on an item it is implied that they will do their own research and easily reach the conclusion that the price is stupid. Not because it's "supporting scammers".

 

If you do go around splashing that amount of money without doing any proper research on items dont think many will feel sorry for you.

 

In my opinion it's all fair game, if you are using your money you should always be aware of the potential risks, it isnt our job to hold your hand every time you trip, if you do splash money around without caring then you can afford to lose the money. Unless the player is going around trying to convince players that his item is worth 300+ by quoting SCM then maybe...

 

Same example in suggestions:

Selling =/= sold: What people are selling for does not mean others are willing to buy for that price. Buyouts (B/o) won’t matter if the seller didn’t get what they asked for. I can make hundreds of trades selling my ref for 10 keys. It doesn't mean anything until someone legitimately pays for it. 

[♠Derpeh♤]

The only thing's that "retarded" here is your narrow perspective

Say sharking rules got abolished starting tomorrow. What do you think would happen? The trading community would devolve into a bunch of vipers who prey on other people's weaknesses, ignorance, and go out of their way to deceive them. Do you think things would end at sharking? After all, if we're cancelling every rule we have on sharking, we're allowing trickery and fooling other people. Scamming is very much like that, so it would be very hypocritical of everyone to allow sharking but not scamming. People would start to scam, and there's nothing we could do about it.

 

Then we will become a much better trading community overall. Just look at CS:GO, scamming/sharking there is rampant and much more than tf2 in the beginning but now I dare say they have a much better trading community because in general they rarely fall for scams. Compare that to tf2 where even now after so many years we have people falling for the same tricks over and over again because our community tries to hold everyone's hands. eg: no need to check rep becuase his steam rep is gud! no need to check rep cuz he has no marks! New broker on a new account? It all gud cuz he no banned anywhere!...etc

 

Not to mention it develops a sense of responsibility which is what tf2 completely lacks. If you get scammed in CS:GO you're laughed at because it's your backpack and your responsibility. The tf2 mind set is to blame the scammer for tricking him rather than self reflect that they were the ultimate cause :l

 

Sometimes holding people's hand too much isnt a good thing. Until you screw up you dont learn.

 

Again this is my opinion. I'm not supporting scammers just an advocate for taking responsibility.

[Roastededededed]

TRADING IS WHERE THE BIG BOIS PLAY, IF YOU AINT READY THEN STAY IN THE CLOSET LOL

but we seriously need to stop holding hands smh. 

IF YOU FALL FOR A TRICK LIKE THAT, THATS ON YOU LMAO. AND IF THEY CAN GET HIGH PROFILE ITEMS WITH A SIMPLE TRICK, THESE GUYS ARE GENIUSES, FEEDING OFF OF THE IGNORANCE OF OTHERS. 

THE HAND HOLDING NEEDS TO STOP, ITS DUMBER THAN A SACK OF CHARLIE SHEENS.

[Mag!cGuy]

 FEEDING OFF OF THE IGNORANCE OF OTHERS. 

 

 

 

And that is what you call a pathologic lack of empathy. Believing one's success can only be achieved to the detriment of others is incredibly narrow minded. And even if that is not what you said, praising this kind of behavior makes you look as pernicious as the scammers you're lauding.

 

 

Derpeh, I think you're not seeing the point to be focused right. See, if you get scammed, that means you messed up. I agree. Trading is so secured, and there are so few ways that would even remotely look plausible to scam, it means the victim hasn't thought the thing through at all. But mocking the person? Saying they deserve it? Saying the scammer is the genius in the story? That is sickening. Because someone did not pay attention, does not mean they do not care about their money.  A kid who wants to get started in trading with 25 bucks, if not less, and did not know that someone would be as evil as putting an item up in the market just for the sake of sharking, and eventually gets sharked, is not gonna be able to re-invest 25 bucks. He'll just have lost any hope he had to enter in the trading world, because of some moron who does not understand you do not get away, at some point in life, with swindling people for selfish gains.

 

I see that thought a lot when people discuss about real-life trials concerning scams (like the Madoff ones a few years ago). "They were stupid to trust him with all their money". Yes, they were. Well, stupid is not the word. Naive is. And because someone is naive, they do not deserve to be completely screwed. "Learn the hard way" is a quote that makes us go back 100 years ago, as if one had to endure pain in order to move forward. This is so old-fashioned, it's incredible.

 

Praising someone who scammed, or laughing at someone who got scammed, is not being better than the scammer itself. And I seriously do not understand how these people can look themselves in the mirror when they wake up in the morning. 

 

"The tf2 mind set is to blame the scammer for tricking him rather than self reflect that they were the ultimate cause :l " No. The cause was the scammer. It's as if you said, exactly as if you said "hey, this man murdered his wife because she cheated on him. Well, she deserved it, she is the cause of what happened, since, had not she cheated, he would not have killed her". Messed up logic, that is. The wrongdoer is the one who is doing wrong, not the victim. There is a difference between taking responsilbity (the victim should have triple-checked before doing this shady trade, the victim did unspeakable things by cheating on her husband) and being the one who's completely at fault in the story. (the victim deserved it, the victim is 100% the one to be blamed here, it's normal she was murdered).

[Gasoline]

Sadly, Dehter is making more sense here. Sure, we have the law, the police, we have CCTV, GPS, invented all kind of locks and security method, but if you yourselves don't lock the car before you left, well, it's partly your responsiblity if your car get stolen, isn't it? Sure, we can control the damage, fire some reports, track down the culprit and if lucky, get your car back, but if you continue to behave like that, if your car is gone forever, it's not the law's fault, or the police's, or your lock's, it's yours.

 

The community will do what they can to help you and protect you, but we ain't your mum. We don't have responsiblity to hold your hand 24/7. We also ain't your fairy godmother who can magically take back your items and money with a wave of our hands, and FYI Steam is sick of being this holy godmother up until now and has stopped duplicating your items for you. So really, if someone doesn't realize it's their responsiblity to learn how to swim before treading deep water and eventually get drowned, we probably can only collect the body. Then people laugh, or cry, or write headlines about it, whatever, won't change the what happened anyway.

[funkle]

The only thing's that "retarded" here is your narrow perspective

Say sharking rules got abolished starting tomorrow. What do you think would happen? The trading community would devolve into a bunch of vipers who prey on other people's weaknesses, ignorance, and go out of their way to deceive them. Do you think things would end at sharking? After all, if we're cancelling every rule we have on sharking, we're allowing trickery and fooling other people. Scamming is very much like that, so it would be very hypocritical of everyone to allow sharking but not scamming. People would start to scam, and there's nothing we could do about it.

There are rules for very good reasons, just because YOU do not understand them or agree with them doesn't mean they're "retarded".

I understand the rules perfectly. What you dont understand is that there is a line between a scam and a "shark". Getting sharked means that you willingly exchanged items with lack of knowledge on values or you took something that was equal value to you, but not necessarily equal value to community standards. Thats something that they could be easily prevented by simply googling the items. A scam is deceptively trading items with equal values to both parties but the scammer party ensuring that they dont trade their end of the deal. One is robbery, one is still an exchange of items. Of course, the people who neglected to take the time to learn HOW to trade before actually trading are getting screwed. Thats no ones fault but themselves. Derpeh was right, we keep holding sharks accountable for getting a bargain on ignorance instead of the people who neglected to educate themselves. They think people care that they run the risk of getting banned for sharking? Whos going to report them, the kid who didnt know how to google search item values? Let's be real. 

[Gren]

The only thing's that "retarded" here is your narrow perspective

Say sharking rules got abolished starting tomorrow. What do you think would happen? The trading community would devolve into a bunch of vipers who prey on other people's weaknesses, ignorance, and go out of their way to deceive them. Do you think things would end at sharking? After all, if we're cancelling every rule we have on sharking, we're allowing trickery and fooling other people. Scamming is very much like that, so it would be very hypocritical of everyone to allow sharking but not scamming. People would start to scam, and there's nothing we could do about it.

There are rules for very good reasons, just because YOU do not understand them or agree with them doesn't mean they're "retarded".

 

Do you really think that these 'rules' play a large part in bringing about the correct behavior through punitive measures?  Just check how many banned accounts there are.  Do you think we catch them all?  I doubt it, I bet we're barely scratching the surface.  

 

I am not a fan of being forced into any behaviour.  I call that violence.  I don't appreciate it when my government does it, and I sure as hell don't appreciate it when a 3rd party community does it to regulate a game they didn't design or support.  Why are people such big fans of restrictive rules?  Do you like being told what to do?  Do you feel the need to be told what to do because you couldn't function otherwise?  I don't need to be told not to rob someone in order not to rob people.  Likewise, I don't need to be told not to scam people in order not to to scam them.  The flipside of that is that people who are inclined to such behaviours will indulge them, regardless of the 'rules'.  There are too many real life examples to use to illustrate this point (e.g. war on drugs, war on terror, etc.).  

 

Here's a little story: When the Salty Dog went all-class, I got 23 trade offers within 30 minutes, all paying my old single class BO in pure (150 keys).  How many people do you think mentioned that the hat just got updated?  3?  5?  Nope, try zero.  Even worse actually, most had a line like this in the trade offer "Hey, 150 keys for this nice soldier unusual.  Please and thank you :)"  So not only were they not mentioning that my old BO obviously no longer applies, they were actively trying to deceive me into thinking the hat was still single class.  I won't mention names, but there were a few people who post here who made such trade offers.  No big deal to me, I'm not an idiot, I knew something was up right away and verified within seconds that the hat had been updated.  

 

The point of that story is this:  The very behaviors the rules are trying to suppress is happening regardless of the rules. We know for a fact (ask Penek) that scammers continue to operate freely after a community wide ban.  Scammers will scam, and honest people will continue to be honest.  If all the community admins would make a joint statement tomorrow that none of the community created rules will be enforced as of tomorrow, I bet almost nothing would change.  Then there's also the topic of personal responsibility:  in this digital environment, there is only one way to take your items without your consent and that is through hijacking or trade scams.  Valve deals with those already and even if they didn't, it's not like Steam Rep or Outpost can give you your items back.  Point being, you have the power to protect yourself from literally all scams and when shit really goes down, only Valve can actually help you. Why do we continue to baby people who couldn't be bothered to do their research?  It takes literally a 2 minute google session to identify virtually all possible steam scams and how to protect yourself from them.  As it relates to this case: if you really believe that this shit scattergun is worth 350 USD, maybe you deserve to get scammed.  Clearly, you are in dire need of a lesson.  

 

The rules, or rather the belief that community imposed rules elicit better behaviors is indeed 'retarded'.  

[77777777777777777777777777]

TRADING IS WHERE THE BIG BOIS PLAY, IF YOU AINT READY THEN STAY IN THE CLOSET LOL

but we seriously need to stop holding hands smh. 

IF YOU FALL FOR A TRICK LIKE THAT, THATS ON YOU LMAO. AND IF THEY CAN GET HIGH PROFILE ITEMS WITH A SIMPLE TRICK, THESE GUYS ARE GENIUSES, FEEDING OFF OF THE IGNORANCE OF OTHERS. 

THE HAND HOLDING NEEDS TO STOP, ITS DUMBER THAN A SACK OF CHARLIE SHEENS.

 

Too bad you can't see that if we stopped holding hands, the whole body would get torn apart.

 

@Gren -- I understand your point of view. I fail, however, to see how it's relevant to the matter we're discussing. We're not discussing the direct efficiency of these rules. Scams, sharks and the likes are bound to happen, it's a part of our nature as human beings. Does that mean these very rules, which you seem to claim are inefficient, do not affect trading on the long run? Scams and sharks happen regardless of the rules, however that point of view is dichotomous at best. Here's why; rules do the following in our community:

 

- They deter potential scammers and sharks from actually preying on the weak. Do you think scam rates would stay the exact same, if there were no rules to prevent them? Nobody's there to punish Jimmy for scamming an unusual worth 20 keys. Such a mindset would quickly be spread through all the community.

 

- They condemn principles like deception, dishonesty and deceitfulness. If they were absent, such concepts would be implicitly condoned-- it makes us look very unappealing as a community, chases away newer traders, and goes against our basic human principles. We're all persons behind the monitor, don't forget that, and we need these rules to keep us in check.

 

It's not about what you like, what I like, what Sneeza likes or what Wayne likes. It's about what's best for our community and economy, not as snakes and vipers who will go out of their ways to lie, cheat and deceive other people for a five bucks profit, but as human beings competing in this micro-economy.

Last but not least, I'd like to vehemently question your concept of needing a lesson. Were your limbs ripped off your body whenever you fell as a child? What we should be isn't about who's the smartest, the best predator or the most vicious. I'm nobody to claim what we should be, but if we're seeking to become predators who condone and encourage preying on the weak under the pretense "they deserve it" or "they need a lesson", then I seriously question our future and survival as a community.

 

@Funkle-- First and foremost, you seem, much like most people who've answered me, to be missing the point. You're focusing on my analogy and the difference between sharking and scamming, but seem to willingly ignore the main point they share. Both prey on one's ignorance, weakness and naivety. For the thousandth time, it's NOT about whether someone buys this scattergun or not. It's how WE as a community react to it, what it makes us, and what the future holds for us relying on how we react to it.

I find your rebuttal, furthermore, to be quite ironic, as it claims we hold sharks accountable. How so? Whenever we report them, we're faced with demands of screenshots of chat logs, as if Timmy thought of recording his discussion with the guy who offered him three craft hats for his one hat. You're turning a blind eye to how broken such a system is-- it's not hard to acknowledge a shark, it seems however that it's near impossible to punish it. Unless it's a huge one, like the beams woodsman or kicker and his frostbite gibus.

 

@Derpeh-- Allow me to suggest a radical way to change your life, which seems to be in accordance with your belief. Stop socializing with most people and start using them as objects. Never go out, never do a single thing unless you gain something from someone else. Always prey on others in life, and you will succeed.

Why? Because you'll be better if you transcend humanity.

... or will you? Comparing cs:go's trading scene to ours is pretty irrelevant as I see it, because one is massive and has international tournaments, worldwide interest and a humongous competitive and pub scene alike, while the other has a close-knit competitive community, close to no investment on getting it attention, and very limited people invested in it compared to other larger games. You also need to take into consideration the younger playerbase in general, and consequently the added naivety. I think you're picking the easier way out-- yes, it's easy to shark someone when we just consider them as victims who deserve it. Just because they believe it's their fault doesn't mean we need to. We don't need to adapt a sort of mob mentality because the majority considers it to be wrong.

Just because it brings more success doesn't mean it's morally acceptable or justifiable.

[Mag!cGuy]

Too bad you can't see that if we stopped holding hands, the whole body would get torn apart.

[and all the rest of the post]

If I could press like on this post a thousand times, I litteraly would.

[funkle]

--hella text--

something we can seem to agree on is that the rule system we have is totally broken. Of course the staff is asking for evidence that someone was sharked, because we cant ban people based off words. Too many people get salty in trading and scream at things they dont like. Something we dont agree on is that you seem to feel like the rule needs to be more closely monitored and loosely controlled. I feel like this whole sharking rule needs to be removed. Sharking is based on ignorance. Not scams, scams are deception. Theyre designed to be smoke and mirrors to try and fool someone into thinking someones giving them what they actually want. Not being tricked off a lack of knowledge to take something that is actually worthless to you. 

And yes, you (and the community) do hold sharks accountable for this sort of thing. Demanding that they should be banned should be answered with proof that they did these things. You answered your own question there.

Too bad you can't see that if we stopped holding hands, the whole body would get torn apart.

 

Too bad you can't see that if we're all holding hands, we're unable to point these newbies in the right direction. They never learn to take trading seriously, they never care to learn the value of their inventory, they never care to check the facts. They're just going to continue to turn a blind eye and run to the admins when they get screwed. 

[Lava]

If there is misrepresentation of items (not prices), like renaming an item to "unusual" with a name tag and trading it to someone new claiming it's valuable, then it's may be something we can tag for. If it's misrepresentation of a price, like lying and saying an item is worth $20 when it's realistically $2, then it's outside the scope of SteamRep's (and their partners') investigative policy and not taggable. That might get you banned on one or more trading websites, and affect your reputation in different ways, but not tagged. You are allowed to sell your items for any price you wish, and you're never under any obligation to actually sell them. If it's your item, you're the one setting the price, and the idea here is if your price is too high nobody is going to buy it. Trading is, by and large, a zero sum game, so there will always be winners and losers. If you police prices and force everyone to buy and sell within a set price or range, it grid locks the economy, nobody can make profit, and the economy tanks. If someone paid $50 for a $20 unusual, guess what? It's now a $50 unusual. Maybe it's not $50 for long, but at least someone was willing to pay $50 for it. At worst, blatant misrepresentation of prices is sharking, and SteamRep decided long ago to distance themselves from price policing, and the partner communities who tried to handle sharking report got overwhelmed with "price policing" reports to the point of giving up, so sharking reports will generally not be investigated.

 

What sometimes happens that is worth a mark is 2 people will work together in what's sometimes called a "glimmer drop", where one has all the readily available copies of some worthless but relatively rare item (like a foil trading card), and the other has a valuable item (knife, unusual, etc) but just happens to only want that rare item. The guy with a valuable item will pressure the victim into buying the rare but overpriced item, saying it's the only thing he wants, and then block/remove once the rare but worthless item is bought. Because this involves a broken trade agreement, it can (for some people has) earn a scammer tag if the right evidence is available. If that's what's going on in OP, then go ahead and report it to SteamRep.

 

Then we will become a much better trading community overall. Just look at CS:GO, scamming/sharking there is rampant and much more than tf2 in the beginning but now I dare say they have a much better trading community because in general they rarely fall for scams. Compare that to tf2 where even now after so many years we have people falling for the same tricks over and over again because our community tries to hold everyone's hands. eg: no need to check rep becuase his steam rep is gud! no need to check rep cuz he has no marks! New broker on a new account? It all gud cuz he no banned anywhere!...etc

 

Not to mention it develops a sense of responsibility which is what tf2 completely lacks. If you get scammed in CS:GO you're laughed at because it's your backpack and your responsibility. The tf2 mind set is to blame the scammer for tricking him rather than self reflect that they were the ultimate cause :l

 

Sometimes holding people's hand too much isnt a good thing. Until you screw up you dont learn.

 

Again this is my opinion. I'm not supporting scammers just an advocate for taking responsibility.

 

On the contrary, the CS:GO community isn't really adapting to scammers too well. Scammers of all types are running around there about as rampantly as phishing used to be, and are actually better at adapting than victims are at learning. Even if you lack sympathy for victims, the scammers will still flood you as badly as phishing bots when you bumped a trade on Outpost. Having been added by a brigade of victims who fell for scammers impersonating me, what usually happens is the victim either gives up on the game completely, or turns to scamming themself to try and recover their losses, starting the cycle anew with other victims. I get a lot of stories from victims who just invested their birthday money or similar one-time source to jumpstart their trading, and either say "if you can't do anything to get my knife back then you can't do anything to stop me from stealing someone else's" or "I will never be able to trade again" and then I see they indeed abandon the account. Phishing never really went away until it got to a point where Valve implemented trade holds, and now the very same people who were phishing (a couple came out as career criminals during tag appeals) have moved onto fake gambling site clones, admin impersonation (with some even registering SteamRep clone domains like steaRNrep.com), and "Steam wallet" scams by carding on the community market. I'm all for personal responsibility, and not enabling bad practices, and we try to remind victims reading any of our guides if they don't follow our guidelines and get scammed we can't get their items back, but would you propose waiting it out until Valve comes up with another new "feature" to curb scamming? Valve has taken the stance of not enabling victims by not returning scammed items, which can arguably teach a hard lesson in responsibility (if they don't turn to scamming), but withholding that kind of information just helps perpetuate myths that scammers can spread around, like the validity of "+rep" comments, Steam level, Lounge reputation scores, and donor statuses as signs someone is less likely to scam.

 

The CS:GO community as a whole is a lot more... hostile and self-centered (by some accounts, "toxic") than TF2 ever was - DDoSing people during matches with rented malware bots to win a bet or retaliate for a loss was relatively unheard of in TF2 but is common practice in CS:GO - so there's a real lack of empathy for victims until you're the one who lost several hundred or thousand dollars. I think that's where a lot of the "personal responsibility" impression comes from in CS:GO. Once that popular "every man for himself" streamer gets scammed though, he's just as quick to demand "justice" as any of the TF2 victims though. But really, contrary to popular opinion, victims in either game aren't necessarily "stupid" so much as uneducated. It's easy to think victims are stupid, careless, or deserving, especially when you're having to explain "same name =/= same profile" several times in the same conversation, and how you're not a "Steam admin" who can return their items, but many victims are new to not just trading, but Steam altogether, and aren't aware of nuances we take for granted, like the fact you can run multiple accounts at once using Sandboxie, that 2 accounts can have the same name, or that you can change your name in Steam. Problem with CS:GO is, the game is still growing and expanding, with more and more people picking up the game or its economy for the first time. More and more newbies alongside sketchier people than TF2 has ever known makes a riper breeding ground for scammers.

 

Do you really think that these 'rules' play a large part in bringing about the correct behavior through punitive measures?  Just check how many banned accounts there are.  Do you think we catch them all?  I doubt it, I bet we're barely scratching the surface.  

 

I am not a fan of being forced into any behaviour.  I call that violence.  I don't appreciate it when my government does it, and I sure as hell don't appreciate it when a 3rd party community does it to regulate a game they didn't design or support.  Why are people such big fans of restrictive rules?  Do you like being told what to do?  Do you feel the need to be told what to do because you couldn't function otherwise?  I don't need to be told not to rob someone in order not to rob people.  Likewise, I don't need to be told not to scam people in order not to to scam them.  The flipside of that is that people who are inclined to such behaviours will indulge them, regardless of the 'rules'.  There are too many real life examples to use to illustrate this point (e.g. war on drugs, war on terror, etc.).  

 

Here's a little story: When the Salty Dog went all-class, I got 23 trade offers within 30 minutes, all paying my old single class BO in pure (150 keys).  How many people do you think mentioned that the hat just got updated?  3?  5?  Nope, try zero.  Even worse actually, most had a line like this in the trade offer "Hey, 150 keys for this nice soldier unusual.  Please and thank you :)"  So not only were they not mentioning that my old BO obviously no longer applies, they were actively trying to deceive me into thinking the hat was still single class.  I won't mention names, but there were a few people who post here who made such trade offers.  No big deal to me, I'm not an idiot, I knew something was up right away and verified within seconds that the hat had been updated.  

 

The point of that story is this:  The very behaviors the rules are trying to suppress is happening regardless of the rules. We know for a fact (ask Penek) that scammers continue to operate freely after a community wide ban.  Scammers will scam, and honest people will continue to be honest.  If all the community admins would make a joint statement tomorrow that none of the community created rules will be enforced as of tomorrow, I bet almost nothing would change.  Then there's also the topic of personal responsibility:  in this digital environment, there is only one way to take your items without your consent and that is through hijacking or trade scams.  Valve deals with those already and even if they didn't, it's not like Steam Rep or Outpost can give you your items back.  Point being, you have the power to protect yourself from literally all scams and when shit really goes down, only Valve can actually help you. Why do we continue to baby people who couldn't be bothered to do their research?  It takes literally a 2 minute google session to identify virtually all possible steam scams and how to protect yourself from them.  As it relates to this case: if you really believe that this shit scattergun is worth 350 USD, maybe you deserve to get scammed.  Clearly, you are in dire need of a lesson.  

 

The rules, or rather the belief that community imposed rules elicit better behaviors is indeed 'retarded'.  

 

SteamRep isn't really designed to be punitive though, and it's neither designed to, nor effective at, keeping scams from happening altogether. It's designed to warn the rest of the community when someone has scammed, so they can make an educated decision. It provides a sort of warning for those who will take a time to research a profile so they can see someone isn't trustworthy.

 

As for rules, whether you like it or not, they're part of living in a civilized society. I do agree rules should not be overreaching (to be clear, SteamRep isn't law enforcement and has never claimed to be), but many of us would like a cleaner community with at least some minimal standard where every single person we meet isn't trying to entrap us in their money laundering conspiracy. Most community admins do not like their sites or server clusters being associated with that kind of thing, and to some extent allowing it even poses a risk of Valve intervening, so they often take measures to keep their communities clean. Maybe a sort of every-man-for-himself darwinistic anarchy is your thing, and I won't intrude on your political beliefs, but if you don't like it nobody but Valve is forcing to follow any particular rules. Just don't complain when other communities who don't like what you're doing, and strive to keep a clean community, end up banning you from user reports or reputation.

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something we can seem to agree on is that the rule system we have is totally broken. Of course the staff is asking for evidence that someone was sharked, because we cant ban people based off words. Too many people get salty in trading and scream at things they dont like. Something we dont agree on is that you seem to feel like the rule needs to be more closely monitored and loosely controlled. I feel like this whole sharking rule needs to be removed. Sharking is based on ignorance. Not scams, scams are deception. Theyre designed to be smoke and mirrors to try and fool someone into thinking someones giving them what they actually want. Not being tricked off a lack of knowledge to take something that is actually worthless to you. 

And yes, you (and the community) do hold sharks accountable for this sort of thing. Demanding that they should be banned should be answered with proof that they did these things. You answered your own question there.

 

That's the thing-- sharking can also be issued out of deception, since you're lying, directly or indirectly, to the victim about their item's worth. I'm not saying there are literally no difference between them, but both often stem from the same thing. Conceptually, they're very close.

We hold them accountable, yes. Does it deter them from doing it? Absolutely not. This kind of people cares very little for what other people have to think, as long as they're not punished by the authorities they're fine with quickselling the hat they just sharked and call it a day. The best thing we can do is refuse to buy the hats/items, and good luck inciting thousands of people to do that without at least dozens of them jumping on the opportunity to make a quick buck.

That's the thing-- it can't be answered with said proof, because there's no reason for the proof to exist in that context. Speaking of which, such context should be used when judging a shark-- there's a difference between the fact some dude might've paid paypal for some hat and the guy who sold it got shit with said pp money and decides to scream shark, and some kid who has no idea what online money is and got some keys from some acquaintance.

The fact we're refusing to judge sharks based on context, and instead require proof that is impossible to acquire, shows how apathetic we are of this whole situation. And if you ask me, it's messed up. We succeed as a trading community, but we fail as human beings and eventually doom ourselves to repeat this vicious cycle of deception and predators. Some people make profit, but we all lose.