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The Wager


♛ AlphaOmega ♛

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Here is a question for you, theist or atheist:

 

Suppose someone precious to you is dying and the doctor offers to try a new miracle drug that he couldnt guarantee works, but has a 50% chance of working. The medicine is very cheap. Is it reasonable to try it , even if it costs a little money?

 

The logical thing to do is pay for the medicine and hope for the best right?

 

Pascal has a theory called "The Wager". It's a pretty basic theory: you make a wager on whether or not God exists. If you wager that he IS real, you CAN win Eternal life. If you are wrong, you get nothing. If you wager that he IS NOT real, and you are wrong, you dont even have a chance at Eternal Life. lose everything. This is a low risk bet: you can get eternity if you give up a little, or give up nothing and risk not receiving anything in the Eternal.

 

Now, this is not a "high" ideal like faith, hope, love, or proof. It is a low "ideal": the instinct for self-preservation, the desire to be happy and not unhappy.

 

Here is another example:

 

"Imagine you are playing a game for two prizes. You wager blue chips to win blue prizes and red chips to win red prizes. THe blue chips are your mind, your reason, and the blue prize is the truth about God's existence. The red chips are your wil, your desires, and the red prize is heavenly happiness. Everyone wants both prizes, truth and happiness. Now suppose there is no way of calculating how to play the blue chips. Suppose your reason cannot win you the truth. In that case, you can calculate how to play the red chips. Believe in God not because your reason can prove with certainty that it is true that God exists but because your will seeks happiness, and God is your only chance of attaining happiness eternally."

 

That passage is from an article about The Argument from Pascal's Wager. Personally, I bypass it mainly because I'm not "betting on God"; I know he exists. That's me.

 

I wanted to hear your opinions and ideas on this. Is "The Wager" logical? Is it a sound arguement or are there fallacies in this concept?

 

Please be respectful.

 

I want to be clear im not trying to convert anyone. Please stick mainly to what you think about The Wager theory.

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I know he exists. That's me.

 

How can you know that he exists when others claim that they know that he does not exist?

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How can you know that he exists when others claim that they know that he does not exist?

By the way my life has gone. Ive done many things that i simply wouldnt be able to do alone. Its a gut feeling.

 

In the end, its better than NOT believing in him, right?

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By the way my life has gone. Ive done many things that i simply wouldnt be able to do alone. Its a gut feeling.

 

In the end, its better than NOT believing in him, right?

Belief should be based upon evidence, not blind faith.

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Posted · Hidden by puddingkip, May 13, 2015 - No reason given
Hidden by puddingkip, May 13, 2015 - No reason given

mfw i read all of that

iofsjfV.png

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Posted · Hidden by puddingkip, May 13, 2015 - No reason given
Hidden by puddingkip, May 13, 2015 - No reason given

NEVERMIND, MY 1ST REPLY APPLIES TO THIS DUDE

 

if god not kill then how is people?

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Belief should be based upon evidence, not blind faith.

But isnt that what faith is? Believing something without proof?

 

And what evidence would you propose?

 

if god not kill then how is people?

Im sorry...i dont understand...

 

NEVERMIND, MY 1ST REPLY APPLIES TO THIS DUDE

Uhm okay. Well ifyou could stay on topic....
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One of the most greatest things why I do not believe in god or "God" is if you were the nicest and most helpful person in the world, but you do not believe in "God", you go to hell either way. What a heavenly god he is.

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One of the most greatest things why I do not believe in god or "God" is if you were the nicest and most helpful person in the world, but you do not believe in "God", you go to hell either way. What a heavenly god he is.

"Most greatest"

 

Grammar Nazi aside, I do wrestle with this quite a bit myself. I've come to this conclusion for the moment: God deals in the way only He knows. The standards that we use to decide who is good and bad are far different from his. From a christian sstandpoint, God is "love". Love for your neighbor, love for your family; these are all manifests of God. If you are a good person who shows love, that in of itself is belief in God, since God is "love".

 

Here is the opposite: if you do deal in hatred, you are against God. You show no presence of God and TRULY DENY HIM by doing things that would hurt other people.

 

I don't think that NOT believing in God will lead to hell. There are plenty of good people who (I'm sure) have gone to heaven without believing in God. But they do that which manifests love, and if God is Love, then they have lived a life worthy of Heaven.

 

HOWEVER, this entire arguement of "The Wager" is in a different direction. Why not be a good person AND believe in God anyway? If you are wrong, you lived a good life. If you are right, then you've lived a good life AND if you DID need to believe in God to get into heaven, you have that criteria.

 

If you are a good person, why not jsut make the safe bet?

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One of the most greatest things why I do not believe in god or "God" is if you were the nicest and most helpful person in the world, but you do not believe in "God", you go to hell either way. What a heavenly god he is.

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One problem with Pascal's Theory is that it assumes everyone can just throw themselves into a faith. Everyone has their own perspective... thats why its so difficult for people to give concrete "evidence" of their feelings. While I respect everyone who is devoted to a faith, I cannot force myself to believe something that I have not experienced for myself. Until that changes, I'm hoping to get into "heaven" through living the best way possible. Kinda what religion generally tells us to do anyways.

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-snip-

Wait, but didn't "God" flood the earth because he hated man so much? My "God" he should go to hell for his hatred against us. Maybe thats why he's not here right now. He sent himself to hell.

 

Are you trying to get people to believe in "God: because of Pascal's theory or something? You should not do this in the internet.

 

Are you a catholic btw? I'm guessing you are since you are from my country.

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Wait, but didn't "God" flood the earth because he hated man so much? My "God" he should go to hell for his hatred against us. Maybe thats why he's not here right now. He sent himself to hell.

 

Are you trying to get people to believe in "God: because of Pascal's theory or something? You should not do this in the internet.

 

Are you a catholic btw? I'm guessing you are since you are from my country.

 

Santa, it seems that you have a particular interpretation of the bible that you keep discussing. Your arguments continue to have nothing to do with this thread... the question is what logical fallacies does Pascal's theory have? You also seem to think that OP's goal is to gather a small religious cult on the backpack.tf forums. I do not think this is the case, stop attacking him for it and address the question.

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Santa, it seems that you have a particular interpretation of the bible that you keep discussing. Your arguments continue to have nothing to do with this thread... the question is what logical fallacies does Pascal's theory have? You also seem to think that OP's goal is to gather a small religious cult on the backpack.tf forums. I do not think this is the case, stop attacking him for it and address the question.

You should read the final bit on what he said to me.

 

"If you are a good person, why not jsut make the safe bet?"

 

How can I not be ticked off by this if his main reason for making this thread is to do that?

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Wait, but didn't "God" flood the earth because he hated man so much? My "God" he should go to hell for his hatred against us. Maybe thats why he's not here right now. He sent himself to hell.

 

Are you trying to get people to believe in "God: because of Pascal's theory or something? You should not do this in the internet.

 

Are you a catholic btw? I'm guessing you are since you are from my country.

No. I am replying to your comment earlier. My main thing here is to see what you guys think of my OP: is betting on God a good wager.

 

No. You are paraphrasing the bible here. He flooded the earth because he wanted to start anew. And if he hated man, why save Noah? The closer reading goes like this:

 

God saw that SIN had envolved the world. He then decided to purge the sin from the world. If he hated man, why save noah?

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You should read the final bit on what he said to me.

 

"If you are a good person, why not jsut make the safe bet?"

 

How can I not be ticked off by this if his main reason for making this thread is to do that?

Im quoting what Paschal's theory is: why not wager ON a God?

 

Im not saying you should believe in God. Not at all. But when i explain Paschal's theory, what do you think?

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My issue with Pascal's wager is that it doesn't account for different religions. What if you take the wager and spend your whole life praying to the Christian God but when you die you find out that actually the Greek Gods are running the show and all that praying was for nothing since it wasn't for Zeus. You changed the way you lived your life and you were half right that there was a higher power but got screwed because your info was wrong. 
 

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-snip-

Pascal has a theory called "The Wager". It's a pretty basic theory: you make a wager on whether or not God exists. If you wager that he IS real, you CAN win Eternal life. If you are wrong, you get nothing.

-snip-

 

The Wager can be applied to anything. One of the better known quotes that relates is "You miss 100% of the shots you don't take."

That works for Basketball. You either miss, or you make the shot. Same with the medicine. Death, or life.(Yes, obviously condition of life is a grey area, but still, there are only 2 basic options.)

 

Problem with The Wager and religion is, there are 100s, if not thousands of religions. They each have about about proof/fact as another(See Note1). So you are not only applying your wager to one, then (by Wager logic) you automatically fail every single other religion.

 

I personally don't see myself as a religious man, but I do have a "faith"(See Note2). I love that "God"s rules tell us to be wonderful to each other, but too many people take that as, "I am religious, I am better than you." Which is opposite of all of the teachings I have found. I appreciate those who have faith, and stick to their beliefs. I almost feel jealous. I can't/won't follow a belief which I can't constitute or calculate.

 

 

Note1: You say that you could not have gotten this far "on your own". So there is somebody/God helping you. You believe it to be God, but what is to say it is not Zeus, Aphrodite, Tymora, or even "The Good Faith of Man" that assisted you in your journey? You may have definite proof that you were assisted/helped, but do you have definite proof it was God? (Just food for thought, not attacking ya)

 

Note2: I "follow"/believe the principles of those who are "Unitarian Universalist". Basically that every person is worth exactly 1 person, we are all created equal, and are supposed to respect, follow each other. Many Atheists/Agnostic people are "UU". If you want to read more about the Principles, check it out. http://www.uua.org/beliefs/what-we-believe/principles

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One of the most greatest things why I do not believe in god or "God" is if you were the nicest and most helpful person in the world, but you do not believe in "God", you go to hell either way. What a heavenly god he is.

 

Imagine you have an exam, you are nicest and best guy that helps everyone in the exam hall, however you didn't answer any question, should the teacher give you a pass mark because you were good and helped everyone ? Or will the teacher give you a F ?

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Posted · Hidden by puddingkip, May 13, 2015 - No reason given
Hidden by puddingkip, May 13, 2015 - No reason given

Delete this post. Accidently quoted myself. Derp.

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Imagine you have an exam, you are nicest and best guy that helps everyone in the exam hall, however you didn't answer any question, should the teacher give you a pass mark because you were good and helped everyone ? Or will the teacher give you a F ?

Well if the grade is to help people, as the Bible says, then the teacher would give you an A...

 

I too find it odd that it is often said; those who follow the faith with be forgiven their mortal sins, yet the perfect person who worships another deity, will be sent to hell. Seems very spiteful.

I digress. I don't want this to be locked for flaming.

 

According to the wager, and earning your eternal happiness, it seems one would have to bet on every single faith, to earn it as any of them might be "the correct one".

 

 

(I saw you reading Ian haha)

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Im quoting what Paschal's theory is: why not wager ON a God?

Im not saying you should believe in God. Not at all. But when i explain Paschal's theory, what do you think?

It's still saying "Believe in God". It's like saying: "You can try and not believe in God, but hey! If you believe in him, you can still live your life and stay in heaven. Isn't that fantastic? So how about you believe in God?."

 

Nothing happened. Same idea. Just complicated into a game of gambling.

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The Wager can be applied to anything. One of the better known quotes that relates is "You miss 100% of the shots you don't take."

That works for Basketball. You either miss, or you make the shot. Same with the medicine. Death, or life.(Yes, obviously condition of life is a grey area, but still, there are only 2 basic options.)

 

Problem with The Wager and religion is, there are 100s, if not thousands of religions. They each have about about proof/fact as another(See Note1). So you are not only applying your wager to one, then (by Wager logic) you automatically fail every single other religion.

 

I personally don't see myself as a religious man, but I do have a "faith"(See Note2). I love that "God"s rules tell us to be wonderful to each other, but too many people take that as, "I am religious, I am better than you." Which is opposite of all of the teachings I have found. I appreciate those who have faith, and stick to their beliefs. I almost feel jealous. I can't/won't follow a belief which I can't constitute or calculate.

 

 

Note1: You say that you could not have gotten this far "on your own". So there is somebody/God helping you. You believe it to be God, but what is to say it is not Zeus, Aphrodite, Tymora, or even "The Good Faith of Man" that assisted you in your journey? You may have definite proof that you were assisted/helped, but do you have definite proof it was God? (Just food for thought, not attacking ya)

 

Note2: I "follow"/believe the principles of those who are "Unitarian Universalist". Basically that every person is worth exactly 1 person, we are all created equal, and are supposed to respect, follow each other. Many Atheists/Agnostic people are "UU". If you want to read more about the Principles, check it out. http://www.uua.org/beliefs/what-we-believe/principles

I see where you are coming from and that is a good point. It is very applicable to many things and cannot just be confined to religion.

 

I did not mean to come off as an elitist. Im not saying because i believe in God i am above others.

 

As for note 1: very true. However, i believe in the 1 God above all. Theory of motions, ya know? If you dont, try Thomas Aquinas first proof. Its an interesting concept.

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