PSA: Trading with bp.tf automatic WILL count towards your trades with scammers on TF2Outpost

[Gent♥]

how can I check who I am buying from on SCM?

 

please do tell

But you can't check who you're selling to, was my point.

[A Delicious Cashew]

 

Before I go on, I do have a question regarding this new rule. Shouldn't this rule fall on the following known sites as well?

 

scrap.tf

dispenser.tf

trade.tf

 

 

There isn't any API to prevent this nor anyone can create one to prevent it. No, bot can recognize what is an alt and what isn't. I don't have anything to say against the rule but this question popped up in my mind.

 

I completely agree with your first point. While the majority of the trades made with bp.tf automatic are less than the threshold that gets you banned for trading with scammers, it is entirely possible for a legit user to trade with a brand new scammer alt on here or trade.tf for sure. 

 

I do believe bp.tf automatic rejects trades from marked scammers. I have never seen any trade like that, so I can't confirm. But there is no easy way to determine what is an alt. There are legit traders with only 400-500 hours of tf2 and there are scammer alts with 1500+ hours who own 20 games. 

[sirploko]

The main issue I have with this is that you are implying that you are holding small time bot users to a HIGHER standard than the largest bot run site in TF2.

I think you misunderstood this then. The services that allow scammer alts to trade with them are certainly something that is highly controversial among us, but it is not our place to tell them how to run their site. They are subject to SRs rules and if Steamrep thinks that their sites are in compliance, then there is nothing we can do about that. Just because we hold ourselves to a higher standard, does not mean that we can impose it on others, as many commenters here have implied we do.

 

You can do as you please, but access to Outpost is no god-given right. If you think our rules are too tough, unfair, whatever, you are free to pursue other venues. This is the whole point of this PSA. It is not to tell people to stop using automatic, it is a warning that they are potentially at risk to trade with scammer alts, that haven been banned on Outpost for a long time and a simple check would reveal this. But since the service is automated, they can't necessarily do that and we will still consider it a rule violation if it happens.

[Дебра]

I completely agree with your first point. While the majority of the trades made with bp.tf automatic are less than the threshold that gets you banned for trading with scammers, it is entirely possible for a legit user to trade with a brand new scammer alt on here or trade.tf for sure. 

 

I do believe bp.tf automatic rejects trades from marked scammers. I have never seen any trade like that, so I can't confirm. But there is no easy way to determine what is an alt. There are legit traders with only 400-500 hours of tf2 and there are scammer alts with 1500+ hours who own 20 games. 

 

Automatic does reject my main, I can however bypass easily with a alt. A lot of legit players will also have <50 hours so saying no to newbies wanting a craft hat for their newly bought key won't work.

There is no way for a bot to determine a alt from a legit user.

[LaughingLollipop]

Automatic does reject my main, I can however bypass easily with a alt. A lot of legit players will also have <50 hours so saying no to newbies wanting a craft hat for their newly bought key won't work.

There is no way for a bot to determine a alt from a legit user.

 

 

you should probably check and see if any outpost admins are using automatic.

 

I wonder if they'd ban themselves lol.

[sirploko]

how can I check who I am buying from on SCM?

 

please do tell

Right click their picture, show graphic (idk what it is in Englisch, it is Grafik anzeigen in German). Copy the adress from the window that opens and put it in tineye. If the results show only a single steam account, you can be sure that it is that person.

 

*That only works in a web browser though, not the steam client.

 

This guy, for example:

http://outpost.gg/sp/9ovwoy.png

 

Is this user:

http://steamcommunity.com/profiles/76561198110652008

 

https://www.tineye.com/search/9b88769753b9c5f5bdc4ad1bfab033ba89b5f452/?page=2&sort=score&order=desc

[LaughingLollipop]

Right click their picture, show graphic (idk what it is in Englisch, it is Grafik anzeigen in German). Copy the adress from the window that opens and put it in tineye. If the results show only a single steam account, you can be sure that it is that person.

 

lol

 

I don't think you can make that statement.

 

Its absurdly easy to change profile images and any image searching site isn't going to continuosly index millions of steam user's profile pics.

[A Delicious Cashew]

Automatic does reject my main, I can however bypass easily with a alt. A lot of legit players will also have <50 hours so saying no to newbies wanting a craft hat for their newly bought key won't work.

There is no way for a bot to determine a alt from a legit user.

Exactly, With this rule, there's nothing stopping a scammer alt with 1500 hours with a couple extra keys from buying unusuals off reputable traders to try and ruin their reputation. You can not standardize an alt. There are reputable traders with low hours and there are scammer alts that look reputable.

 

I respect this new policy from outpost, though it doesn't really affect me as I normally have email confirmation on. If I see a trade for an unusual or something worth over 8 keys, I'll just do a quick background check like I have been doing already.

[♠Derpeh♤]

No he can't. At least according to geel. Scrap.tf checks for SR tags upon login.

Automatic already does this, preventing any tagged users or users which are banned, the topic of this new rule is specifically about scammer alts where no bot can really differentiate between alts and legit accounts.

 

If this rule is to be set for automatic users when why not scrap.tf, or the large amount of bot users on outpost, bazaar? There are no bots which can accurately discern between scammer alts, not to mention automatic can only sell items. As a side note in reference to your reply about being a feature for users, scrap.tf has their bots widely available on githhub, anyone with remote knowledge of coding or the ability to follow a youtube video instruction can make a bot.

 

If this rule is set in and outpost refuses to amend the blatant bias toward bp.tf i wouldnt mind reporting every premium user who uses a bot (And most buy as well and automatic can only sell items), i rarely trade tf2 anymore and i think this rule is stupid. You're basically forcing human judgement on a bot...how hilarious is that?

[BlaqkAudio]

Right click their picture, show graphic (idk what it is in Englisch, it is Grafik anzeigen in German). Copy the adress from the window that opens and put it in tineye. If the results show only a single steam account, you can be sure that it is that person.

 

*That only works in a web browser though, not the steam client.

 

This guy, for example:

http://outpost.gg/sp/9ovwoy.png

 

Is this user:

http://steamcommunity.com/profiles/76561198110652008

 

https://www.tineye.com/search/9b88769753b9c5f5bdc4ad1bfab033ba89b5f452/?page=2&sort=score&order=desc

Terrible example

 

For unique pictures of course. But the majority of scammers/scammer alts have either the default question mark or a stock avatar. 

 

What now?

[sirploko]

 

lol

 

I don't think you can make that statement.

 

Its absurdly easy to change profile images and any image searching site isn't going to continuosly index millions of steam user's profile pics.

If the picture is somewhat unique and used in different contexts by the same person, I am willing to bet on it. You'd be surprised how enormous the database of tineye is. In this specific instance, 10.6 billion similar looking pictures have been compared pixel by pixel to the one I used.

 

So, yes, lol, I can make that statement with confidence.

 

 

Terrible example

 

For unique pictures of course. But the majority of scammers/scammer alts have either the default question mark or a stock avatar.

 

What now?

This is just a reply to a question. I already mentioned that this will only work in a handful of cases and therefore is not something we would require from our users.

[Дебра]

If the picture is somewhat unique and used in different contexts by the same person, I am willing to bet on it. You'd be surprised how enormous the database of tineye is. In this specific instance, 10.6 billion similar looking pictures have been compared pixel by pixel to the one I used.

 

So, yes, lol, I can make that statement with confidence.

 

What if http://steamcommunity.com/id/nutlope? I'd hardly call that a scammer alt but he uses a stock steam avatar.

[sirploko]

Well, It's almost 3:30 am here, I am going to call it a day. If I see any more relevant questions that have not been answered here tomorrow, I'll try to do that then.

 

 

What if http://steamcommunity.com/id/nutlope? I'd hardly call that a scammer alt but he uses a stock steam avatar.

I'm pretty sure I already said that avatars that are used widely can not be traced like that. It needs to be a picture that is unique to a steam account.

[Пол игрока trade karambite]

 

Ah. Right. That's silly.

Buying from scammers, I could understand, for obvious reasons.

But this is essentially enforcing a police state you'll find impossible to reasonably enforce. And it's also a massive double-standard, as its practically no different from scammers buying from you on SCM, which is a complete non-offence.

This can be abused very easily though.

 

Scenario:

Guy wants to trade with scammer

He puts automatic on

Tells scammer to send trade offer

"I'm innocent cause my bot did it!"

[jelly jiggler]

http://backpack.tf/classifieds/?item=Earbuds&quality=6&tradable=1&craftable=1 

 

I guess if i hated polar i could just get a scammer alt to buy his earbud and get him marked

 

 

 

if only wayne used automatic

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

i regret nothing

[LaughingLollipop]

http://backpack.tf/classifieds/?item=Earbuds&quality=6&tradable=1&craftable=1 

 

I guess if i hated polar i could just get a scammer alt to buy his earbud and get him marked

 

u wont

 

 

tbh I'm really looking forward to a new meta in the trading game.

 

Scammer makes account, steamname: I am a scammer alt of "insertrealname"

Scammer hands account a couple hundred scammed keys

Scammer proceeds directly to the bp.tf classifieds and begins offering b/os on anything over 6 keys.

Scammer proceeds to outpost and files reports

 

 

:')

[Slocumruls]

I think you misunderstood this then. The services that allow scammer alts to trade with them are certainly something that is highly controversial among us, but it is not our place to tell them how to run their site. They are subject to SRs rules and if Steamrep thinks that their sites are in compliance, then there is nothing we can do about that. Just because we hold ourselves to a higher standard, does not mean that we can impose it on others, as many commenters here have implied we do.

 

You can do as you please, but access to Outpost is no god-given right. If you think our rules are too tough, unfair, whatever, you are free to pursue other venues. This is the whole point of this PSA. It is not to tell people to stop using automatic, it is a warning that they are potentially at risk to trade with scammer alts, that haven been banned on Outpost for a long time and a simple check would reveal this. But since the service is automated, they can't necessarily do that and we will still consider it a rule violation if it happens.

I think you missed my point. Geel's bots do just as crappy a job at checking for alts as bp.tf automatic or the trade.tf bot. If you are applying the rule to those users using bp.tf automatic or the trade.tf bot then the rule should apply to Geel as well (meaning any trades he does with scammer alts through the scrap.tf bots should get him banned from outpost). What you are currently stating is a double standard.

 

Geel should be treated as just another Outpost User.

 

 

1. You are accountable for any trades that your bot makes with known scammers, users with a private profile or items that have been recently scammed. You should be taking as many measures as possible to prevent hijackers and scammers from profiting from their bad deeds. If your bots are found to be accepting scammed goods then you will be punished.

Should apply to scrap.tf bots just as equally as bp.tf automatic or any other bot.

[Gent♥]

This can be abused very easily though.

 

Scenario:

Guy wants to trade with scammer

He puts automatic on

Tells scammer to send trade offer

"I'm innocent cause my bot did it!"

 

This applies to SCM too.

[Sasuke200]

What is being done here is warning people that yes, if a scammer makes a few high priced buys then you will be accountable for it. Using automatic will just give people an excuse to it and it may be abused so to solve this Outpost made a new set of rules. At the end of the day, the choice is really yours of what you feel like doing.

 

What outpost decides to do is what they decide to do, they can really just ban anyone for whatever reason they like. If you do not like a set of rules they lay out, no one is there forcing you to abide to them. Now if you believe differently sure, you can voice what you think but the main issue is it being abused to purposely trade with scammers and that is where the energy should go to for a solution.

[Пол игрока trade karambite]

This applies to SCM too.

But on the SCM it requires more effort as scammers don't normally care for steam wallet money.

[LaughingLollipop]

What is being done here is warning people that yes, if a scammer makes a few high priced buys then you will be accountable for it. Using automatic will just give people an excuse to it and it may be abused so to solve this Outpost made a new set of rules. At the end of the day, the choice is really yours of what you feel like doing.

 

What outpost decides to do is what they decide to do, they can really just ban anyone for whatever reason they like. If you do not like a set of rules they lay out, no one is there forcing you to abide to them. Now if you believe differently sure, you can voice what you think but the main issue is it being abused to purposely trade with scammers and that is where the energy should go to for a solution.

 

cool so they should probably announcy their own rule subtlties on their own site?!

 

Its rather trollish to show up here and start making posts about the rules of a completely unrelated site.

[OverduePixels]

What is being done here is warning people that yes, if a scammer makes a few high priced buys then you will be accountable for it. Using automatic will just give people an excuse to it and it may be abused so to solve this Outpost made a new set of rules. At the end of the day, the choice is really yours of what you feel like doing.

 

What outpost decides to do is what they decide to do, they can really just ban anyone for whatever reason they like. If you do not like a set of rules they lay out, no one is there forcing you to abide to them. Now if you believe differently sure, you can voice what you think but the main issue is it being abused to purposely trade with scammers and that is where the energy should go to for a solution.

 

I am 100% sure everyone is aware of what you stated however they are getting paid by the people who are using the site and supporting it, and when a site is fully and successfully running, they are entitled to listen to all the users complain and suggestion we have for them. This goes the same for us (backpack.tf) or any other successful running sites.  You can't just throw a rule and say you have to follow it whether you like it or not. There will be complains along with much better suggestions/solutions and you are entitled to address them and work along with the people with the best of your possibility just like how sirploko has been trying here. 

 

You can't just say here is a new rule and now deal with it, goodbye sayonara.

 

Take Valve for example, I remember the time when they enforced a new rule by limiting the number of people you can add in a certain amount of hours and if you reach the limit, thats it for the day. Lots of people complained, including myself and they reversed the update.

 

As I stated before, I have nothing to say against the rule but rather answering what you have posted.

[♠Derpeh♤]

This can be abused very easily though.

 

Scenario:

Guy wants to trade with scammer

He puts automatic on

Tells scammer to send trade offer

"I'm innocent cause my bot did it!"

 

By that logic it should apply to every bot and scm, i dont see why it's only somewhat enforced on automatic. Sir Poko's point about bp.tf offering it as a feature allowing user to abuse it...etc Scrap.tf bots are also open to everyone on gith hub, if you have a basic knowedge of coding or you can follow a 10min youtube video you have a free bot.

 

Why is it that outpost seems bias towards bp.tf bots while defending geel and allow their large amount of bot users on their own trading website especially when automatic can only sell and others sell and buy which can be even more easily abused? (Scammer alts dumping stolen items compared to them buying items for b/o on automatic)

[polar]

This is interesting and certainly something I will talk with bp.tf staff about. It still does not help if a user colludes with a scammer to sell an item to him and just lets the bot accept for him though.

 

 

I'm going to address several issues here. But before I get to them, I'm going to start with one question. Why do we ban people for trading with scammers? Do we ban people for the sake of banning them? To gradually cut down the number of viable traders in our once flourishing economy? To inconvenience people? No. I'm not sure what steamrep's or outpost's rationales are. But MY rationale for banning people for trading with scammers is to discourage scammers by limiting their ability to offload their hijacked / scammed goods. Automatic doesn't condone this, which is a big difference between that and bots on warehouse, scrap.tf, or any number of other bots. On THOSE bots scammers can unload scammed items for pure easily, but that doesn't happen on automatic. What automatic DOES allow is for people to trade their own hats for pure. A scammer (alt) has to pay pure to get your hats at your b/o. It does not condone offloading of items. And in this way it is NOT the same as bots you might see used on outpost or any of these other sites. 

 

Now, is it possible that a scammer just wants to trade for something he likes. Yes. And we don't want to condone trading with SR marked users. So the bot doesn't allow trading with SR marked users. The specific scenario where a scammer alt pays someone's b/o in pure is the only situation where a "bad" trade is made. And for your reference, these trades are all logged for the specific item.

 

This rule basically prevents people from the enormous convenience of instant, automatic trading due to the risk of that rare, specific case. In my opinion, this does the community WAY more harm / inconvenience than it does good in keeping scammers / alts from offloading hijacked items and limiting their incentive and effectiveness. Ultimately, it's your site and you can run it the way you want to. And users can choose to take that risk. What I envision happening is sour, marked people just sending trade offers to screw people over. And if that's the your goal here, then I can't agree with it, but I'll have to accept it to use your site. 

[fluffyy]

snip

iirc cranwell dug himself a deeper hole by doing what you described by sending offers to unmarked people