F CHARLIE Posted July 28, 2014 Share Posted July 28, 2014 This thread is in regards to the conflict in Ukraine. We know what Russia has been doing in Ukraine and that it is unacceptable for a modern European country to be doing this. They can not pretend to be a decent member of the global community (Olympics, fifa cup etc) and engage in this kind policy. I don't see this is as a USA issue but I do think that the EU must take action against Putin's Russia and teach him/them that this anti-democratic thugery will not be tolerated in Europe anymore. A member of the EU has been hit by this now as well. With this said, I think it is Germany that must make this move. Germany needs to punch Putin in the nose snd let him know that the EU will not allow him to sow chaos on the continent. Germany must lead this as it is the strongest player in the EU and has more at stake (being a major consumer of Russian energy products) then other lead countries in the EU. If Germany takes lead abd produces a hardline approach Russia/Putin will run as it would be foolish to anger the EU. It simply cant compete. Everyone knows that the USA will take the hardline. If the EU does then Russia cant stand at all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pearly Gates Posted July 28, 2014 Share Posted July 28, 2014 Talked a lot about this with my Host family. Germany does not like to tamper in stuff like this apparently, maybe because of the Nazi Hitler thing. Also, they want to stay neutral. If they fight Pro Russia they will have bad connections with the with the USA, if they fight for the others they will have bad connections with the russians. Germany hasn't really been in some kind of war since 1945, they dont want to change that i think my opinion Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
F CHARLIE Posted July 28, 2014 Author Share Posted July 28, 2014 Talked a lot about this with my Host family. Germany does not like to tamper in stuff like this apparently, maybe because of the Nazi Hitler thing. Also, they want to stay neutral. If they fight Pro Russia they will have bad connections with the with the USA, if they fight for the others they will have bad connections with the russians. Germany hasn't really been in some kind of war since 1945, they dont want to change that i think my opinion I understand Germany's desire to not enter a conflict but Germany is the leader of the EU. This issue has already damaged one member and Ukraine wants to be a member. There is no reason for conflict to exist in Europe because of how the continant has evolved in recent decades. It is a very peaceful, cooperative region of the world and is a model for the rest of the world. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JollyDoctor Posted July 28, 2014 Share Posted July 28, 2014 I really hate to say this, and it could be biased since I'm from Russia, but Germany can't do anything against Russia by itself. Russia is the superpower in the East, and America to the west. If germany wants to do anything, it has to get other countries to help. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seminal Inhalation Posted July 28, 2014 Share Posted July 28, 2014 I understand Germany's desire to not enter a conflict but Germany is the leader of the EU. This issue has already damaged one member and Ukraine wants to be a member. There is no reason for conflict to exist in Europe because of how the continant has evolved in recent decades. It is a very peaceful, cooperative region of the world and is a model for the rest of the world. Well for one, Germany by itself would get murdered by Russia. It would need some good help from its nearby allies. They haven't been directly involved in the Ukraine conflict, and they're trying to prolong their neutrality on the conflict. They don't want to be involved. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
F CHARLIE Posted July 28, 2014 Author Share Posted July 28, 2014 I really hate to say this, and it could be biased since I'm from Russia, but Germany can't do anything against Russia by itself. Russia is the superpower in the East, and America to the west. If germany wants to do anything, it has to get other countries to help. Russia is not a superpower but Putin tells his people that. Germany, alone, by every measure, is more powerful than Russia. Also, my comment did mention that it would take action as the key member of the EU. It is important to note that Germany is the third largest consumer of Russian energy products. The Netherlands is the highest so thats kinda interesting. Russia didnt have to use subterfuge and open war to get what it wanted. There was a diplomatic way to acquire the Crimea and even part of eastern ukraine but, as history has shown, Russia likes to do things the hard way. I have just heard that the EU has handed down harder sanctions against Russia. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JollyDoctor Posted July 28, 2014 Share Posted July 28, 2014 Russia is not a superpower but Putin tells his people that. Germany, alone, by every measure, is more powerful than Russia. Also, my comment did mention that it would take action as the key member of the EU. It is important to note that Germany is the third largest consumer of Russian energy products. The Netherlands is the highest so thats kinda interesting. Russia didnt have to use subterfuge and open war to get what it wanted. There was a diplomatic way to acquire the Crimea and even part of eastern ukraine but, as history has shown, Russia likes to do things the hard way. I have just heard that the EU has handed down harder sanctions against Russia. Russia has the largest Military as well as the largest military budget in the East... Germany, like the guy above, wouldn't stand long against them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
F CHARLIE Posted July 29, 2014 Author Share Posted July 29, 2014 Russia has the largest Military as well as the largest military budget in the East... Germany, like the guy above, wouldn't stand long against them. I love how both of you imedietly assume I am talking about military power. I am talking about serious sanctions that will cost Russia dearly. Also, do you seriously think that a military conflict with NATO is something you may want to do? Why would you make that co Madison? Germany doesnt need a big military, its part of NATO. Further more, I don't put much stock in Russia's military. It lacks good expierience and certain expertise. A lot of thier equiptment is out of date and was not the best when it was released. It has some interesting equiptment but it has little effect on my opinion. The quality of German armour (tanks) is the highest of the world (even better than M1Abrams). They also don't have a great history. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ronald Reagan Posted August 31, 2014 Share Posted August 31, 2014 Talked a lot about this with my Host family. Germany does not like to tamper in stuff like this apparently, maybe because of the Nazi Hitler thing. Also, they want to stay neutral. If they fight Pro Russia they will have bad connections with the with the USA, if they fight for the others they will have bad connections with the russians. Germany hasn't really been in some kind of war since 1945, they dont want to change that i think my opinion Joachim Gauck , Germanys President, has said multiple times that Germanys main objective is to build up their own economy, to supply not only more jobs for the nations population but also creating new trade lines that will link international communities. It is evident that Germany doesnt want to be involved in any conflict, they want to rebuild their nation after that thing that they dont talk about anymore because it is not relevant. In 1999, Germany was derided as the sick country of Europe, its economic fortunes in sharp contrast to the other growing countries. Over the past decade, the tables have turned, das deutschland is now the European powerhouse. Holding up the euro and exporting 1.492 trillion dollars worth of goods. I think that the country plans to continue this rapid development and not hinder it by interfering with international issues. With best wishes, Chubundu - Your favorite local speed dealer Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ronald Reagan Posted August 31, 2014 Share Posted August 31, 2014 I love how both of you imedietly assume I am talking about military power. I am talking about serious sanctions that will cost Russia dearly. Also, do you seriously think that a military conflict with NATO is something you may want to do? Why would you make that co Madison? Germany doesnt need a big military, its part of NATO. Further more, I don't put much stock in Russia's military. It lacks good expierience and certain expertise. A lot of thier equiptment is out of date and was not the best when it was released. It has some interesting equiptment but it has little effect on my opinion. The quality of German armour (tanks) is the highest of the world (even better than M1Abrams). They also don't have a great history. It is unclear who you are directing your " they dont have a great history" sentence to. Neither Russia or Germany have been in a conflict that required more than 2 tank divisions to be used in war since of course that conflict. You know the conflict, World War Duo. Sorry if i misunderstand your sentence but here we go. GERMAN TANKS The german military has and will always be very fond of tanks. From the infamous Panzer's to the current Leopards. During Germanys slaughter of the french trenches, they used a very effective tactic, it was called the Blitzkreig. This attack composed of long range artillery strikes, then bombings and then Panzer Brigades to cover infantry movement across Poland and France. This tactic created international respect and fear of the german military power. Even though the Wehrmacht eventually fell, the tanks that were used were extremely effective during planned battles. RUSSIAN TANKS AND ARMY The Russian army was also very successful during World War 2, although not being as fond of tanks the red army still used many heavy and light armor divisions to cripple Germany's offence lines. This , as we all know, worked and helped to bring down the Wehrmacht main arrow of attack. Russia's army was very effective. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
F CHARLIE Posted September 3, 2014 Author Share Posted September 3, 2014 @chubundu Military actions since 1900: 1904 - Russo Japan war = lost to fledling japanese navy 1918 - 1921 polish soviet war = lost During same time period military failed to prevent independance of Estonia, Latvia and Lithuania. 1934 - successful intervention in support of Chinese communists against a revolutionary force but was not very efficient. Also used mustard gas to help secure win. 1939 - invasion of Finland= failed to achieve goals because of initial great losses. Ww2 = Win but this is largely due to lend/lease and one of Hitler's poor strategic decisions. Successful incursions into Hungary and Czechoslovakia. Abysmal failure in war against afganistan which was partly to blame for the fall of the soviet union. After the fall the military had several engagements. Kosovo Chechnya Georgia and now Ukraine. None of these have hallmarks of great concordance. Overall, I am not impressed with russian military ability. If NATO accepts ukraine as a member, Putin will be forced to withdrawal his troops and capitulate to ukrainian interests or risk catastrophe. This possibility should have been enough to dissuade Putin from his currant action. It is a failure in planning and projecting that displays incompetence again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grimes Posted September 3, 2014 Share Posted September 3, 2014 @chubundu Military actions since 1900: 1904 - Russo Japan war = lost to fledling japanese navy 1918 - 1921 polish soviet war = lost During same time period military failed to prevent independance of Estonia, Latvia and Lithuania. 1934 - successful intervention in support of Chinese communists against a revolutionary force but was not very efficient. Also used mustard gas to help secure win. 1939 - invasion of Finland= failed to achieve goals because of initial great losses. Ww2 = Win but this is largely due to lend/lease and one of Hitler's poor strategic decisions. Successful incursions into Hungary and Czechoslovakia. Abysmal failure in war against afganistan which was partly to blame for the fall of the soviet union. After the fall the military had several engagements. Kosovo Chechnya Georgia and now Ukraine. None of these have hallmarks of great concordance. Overall, I am not impressed with russian military ability. If NATO accepts ukraine as a member, Putin will be forced to withdrawal his troops and capitulate to ukrainian interests or risk catastrophe. This possibility should have been enough to dissuade Putin from his currant action. It is a failure in planning and projecting that displays incompetence again. The Tsarist's were terrible (military) leaders *cough* Tsar Nicholas II *cough* Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gent♥ Posted September 3, 2014 Share Posted September 3, 2014 The Tsarist's were terrible (military) leaders *cough* Tsar Nicholas II *cough* Nicholas II didn't need satire, he WAS satire. 'Oh, what's this? The Russians are losing national spirit because they're cold and hungry? Maybe I should feed them an- Nahhh, let's just have a war with Japan. That'll do it.' Also, saying 'what will Germany do' makes it sound like a Pokemon Battle. Srs answer now, Germany's literally stuck between a rock ('Murica) and a hard place (Russia). I can only think, RIGHT now, that inaction is the best action. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
knavesmith Posted September 3, 2014 Share Posted September 3, 2014 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heated Bread Posted September 3, 2014 Share Posted September 3, 2014 Deutschland wird gegen die rote gefahr steigen! Wir werden stolz auf die russischen grenzen zu marschieren und schießen unsere leistungsstarke wurst pistolen tief in das kommunistische busen! Lassen sie uns tun es schnell, bevor der winter kommt ... kälte macht unsere wurst pistolen schlaff. Anyway... let me put down my sausage gun and be serious for a moment. The only way this is going to be handled is through economic pressure. You simply can't go to war with a nuclear power. That's off the table and everyone knows it. In fact, that's the only reason russia has been able to do this so far. Ukraine gave away all of their nukes when they became independent. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
∞Ramses Posted September 3, 2014 Share Posted September 3, 2014 Russia just shot in their own feet with their economical "sanction" against Europe. Wait and see after this winter. As for the Ukrainian conflict, it will sort itself out imo. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ronald Reagan Posted September 3, 2014 Share Posted September 3, 2014 das kommunistische busen! isnt it die? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ronald Reagan Posted September 3, 2014 Share Posted September 3, 2014 And by the way, http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-29042561 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
❤ΣκαπανέαςGr❤ Posted September 3, 2014 Share Posted September 3, 2014 This thread is in regards to the conflict in Ukraine. We know what Russia has been doing in Ukraine and that it is unacceptable for a modern European country to be doing this. They can not pretend to be a decent member of the global community (Olympics, fifa cup etc) and engage in this kind policy. I don't see this is as a USA issue but I do think that the EU must take action against Putin's Russia and teach him/them that this anti-democratic thugery will not be tolerated in Europe anymore. A member of the EU has been hit by this now as well. With this said, I think it is Germany that must make this move. Germany needs to punch Putin in the nose snd let him know that the EU will not allow him to sow chaos on the continent. Germany must lead this as it is the strongest player in the EU and has more at stake (being a major consumer of Russian energy products) then other lead countries in the EU. If Germany takes lead abd produces a hardline approach Russia/Putin will run as it would be foolish to anger the EU. It simply cant compete. Everyone knows that the USA will take the hardline. If the EU does then Russia cant stand at all. EU wont ever oppose Russia in any way the majority of our power comes from Russia and gazprom we are in need of Russia more than they are in need of us. they can do whatever they want as long as they sell us their fuels. Germany is the biggest buyer and they really need those resources for their factories and so on. I think EU will let Russia handle the Ukraine thing on their own and as they see fit to.No one in their right minds will interfere with Russias geopolitics aims,not EU and for sure not US. Interfering with Russia is the trigering of the ww3 and everyone is trying not to repeat past mistakes in EU. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Radiated Banana Posted September 3, 2014 Share Posted September 3, 2014 What if russia nukes the EU Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
❤ΣκαπανέαςGr❤ Posted September 3, 2014 Share Posted September 3, 2014 What if russia nukes the EU Would you nuke your greatest customer in the entire world? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
❤ΣκαπανέαςGr❤ Posted September 3, 2014 Share Posted September 3, 2014 I really hate to say this, and it could be biased since I'm from Russia, but Germany can't do anything against Russia by itself. Russia is the superpower in the East, and America to the west. If germany wants to do anything, it has to get other countries to help. I am from greece a EU member but I support russia in that matter.I am pretty familiar to what ukraine means for russia and i do sympathise them after all russia is the one that let them to be independed but that doesnt mean they need to tollerate with what EU&US plans for krimaia. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
F CHARLIE Posted September 3, 2014 Author Share Posted September 3, 2014 What if russia nukes the EU The classic answer is that there will be a counter strike and most of the world would be destroyed. Humanity would consist mainly of Asians. I believe there is an anti missle system in the EU that may counter some of the attack. Even if russia only struck the EU in a limited way the US would have to wipe out much of russia in self defense and in defense of NATO. It would be the saddest day in all of humanities history. EU wont ever oppose Russia in any way the majority of our power comes from Russia and gazprom we are in need of Russia more than they are in need of us. they can do whatever they want as long as they sell us their fuels. Germany is the biggest buyer and they really need those resources for their factories and so on. I think EU will let Russia handle the Ukraine thing on their own and as they see fit to.No one in their right minds will interfere with Russias geopolitics aims,not EU and for sure not US. Interfering with Russia is the trigering of the ww3 and everyone is trying not to repeat past mistakes in EU. So you are ok with a thug/bully having your balls in a vice. GG EU. Russia will use that to manipulate you into the future. Thier next step will be to have you dissolve NATO to make you easier to take more from. Remember, Russia needs the money you pay them as well. I guarantee Russia will make this relationship more expensive for you unless you can have better control of your side. And by the way, http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-29042561 This is a bad result. It is preferable to have Ukraine enter NATO and force Putin out. Russia may be allowed to keep Crimea but must compensate Ukraine for the loss and allow people to leave and compensate them as they leave. South eastern Ukraine stays as most of the population is Ukrainian and dont trust Russia. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Radiated Banana Posted September 3, 2014 Share Posted September 3, 2014 The classic answer is that there will be a counter strike and most of the world would be destroyed. Humanity would consist mainly of Asians. I believe there is an anti missle system in the EU that may counter some of the attack. Even if russia only struck the EU in a limited way the US would have to wipe out much of russia in self defense and in defense of NATO. It would be the saddest day in all of humanities history. So a nuclear armageddon wont happen? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
F CHARLIE Posted September 3, 2014 Author Share Posted September 3, 2014 So a nuclear armageddon wont happen?No. No one wins so no one would engage in it. Edit: There is a ballistic missle defense system in place under NATO command but it needs to be developed more. This system angers Russia. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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